What does the term "sap" or "sappy" mean to you?

[John_Morris]

I’m surprised it didn’t occur to me before now, but Eighteenth Century philosophy offers an example that’s apropos.

It involved the pineapple, which arrived in Europe from the South Pacific around that time. This new fruit was an eye-opener, or perhaps I should say palate-expander. In any event, the empirically-minded British philosophers cited it as an example of a taste that could be not be deduced a priori, and thus vindication of their view that all knowledge began with experience rather than from logical principals. The pineapple had to be tasted to be understood.

A great deal of philosophical ink was spilled over the humble pineapple.

I guess you could say that discussion served as a precedent for this one on several levels.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Ok, enough Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, de Saussure, Sartre, and Camus for the day. My brain is starting to hurt.

[Cris_Whetstone]

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

Ok, enough Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, de Saussure, Sartre, and Camus for the day. My brain is starting to hurt.

But is pineapple ‘mineral’ or ‘sappy’?

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Cris, [middle-finger.gif]

[Wes_Barton]

@G. D y e r

Testing of several of the controversial vintages of Beaucastel showed high levels of Brett byproducts, at least in the samples tested.

Btw, while brettanomyces is (I assume) the most likely cause of the presence of the family of molecules we refer to as brett in a wine, it is not the only chemical pathway. Knowing this, a couple other wineries’ claims about specific wines makes sense. So, one test finding “brett byproducts” in Beaucastel and Pierre Perrin finding no “evidence of brett” makes sense, if he only thought it necessary to test for brettanomyces.

[G_D_y_e_r]

@Wes Barton

@G. D y e r

Testing of several of the controversial vintages of Beaucastel showed high levels of Brett byproducts, at least in the samples tested.

Btw, while brettanomyces is (I assume) the most likely cause of the presence of the family of molecules we refer to as brett in a wine, it is not the only chemical pathway. Knowing this, a couple other wineries’ claims about specific wines makes sense. So, one test finding “brett byproducts” in Beaucastel and Pierre Perrin finding no “evidence of brett” makes sense, if he only thought it necessary to test for brettanomyces.

What if the byproducts include dead Brett yeast cells? The linked article mentioned both high levels of 4-EP and dead Brett cells were found in the bottles tested. Seems like pretty strong evidence in favor of Brett infection since both the yeast and volatile phenols were there. But it also says nothing about other bottles that perhaps had superior provenance that did not favor Brett bloom.

What are some of the other pathways? Are they capable of producing the same high levels of 4-EP as Brett?

[Robert.Fleming]

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

I would posit that term being discussed here (“sappy”) was used in a personal/idiosyncratic manner from the beginning (since the first person who used it to mean something other than “smells/tastes like sap” – i.e.: the literal meaning of “sappy”).

Not necessarily. One of the dictionary definitions of ‘sappy’ is: “full of vitality and energy.” That’s essentially how I understand ‘sappy’ when applied to wine

[Hank_Gillespie]

@Robert.Fleming

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

I would posit that term being discussed here (“sappy”) was used in a personal/idiosyncratic manner from the beginning (since the first person who used it to mean something other than “smells/tastes like sap” – i.e.: the literal meaning of “sappy”).

Not necessarily. One of the dictionary definitions of ‘sappy’ is: “full of vitality and energy.” That’s essentially how I understand ‘sappy’ when applied to wine

Me, too, Bob. I use the term to describe the palate sensation that accompanies this “energy and vitality” as red wine enters the mid-palate - clean and smacky.
Not all red wine expresses this characteristic. When it does I consider it a fine attribute.

Hank

Edited for spelling corrections.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

@Robert.Fleming

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

I would posit that term being discussed here (“sappy”) was used in a personal/idiosyncratic manner from the beginning (since the first person who used it to mean something other than “smells/tastes like sap” – i.e.: the literal meaning of “sappy”).

Not necessarily. One of the dictionary definitions of ‘sappy’ is: “full of vitality and energy.” That’s essentially how I understand ‘sappy’ when applied to wine

Good point, Robert.

But, why not just say “full of vitality and energy.”?

[Robert.Fleming]

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

@Robert.Fleming

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

I would posit that term being discussed here (“sappy”) was used in a personal/idiosyncratic manner from the beginning (since the first person who used it to mean something other than “smells/tastes like sap” – i.e.: the literal meaning of “sappy”).

Not necessarily. One of the dictionary definitions of ‘sappy’ is: “full of vitality and energy.” That’s essentially how I understand ‘sappy’ when applied to wine

Good point, Robert.

But, why not just say “full of vitality and energy.”?

I dunno. Perhaps for the same reason I wouldn’t write “The one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe, is kind, beneficent, and friendly” if what I wanted to convey was “God is good.”

[Robert.Fleming]

@Wes Barton

Btw, while brettanomyces is (I assume) the most likely cause of the presence of the family of molecules we refer to as brett in a wine, it is not the only chemical pathway.

Never heard that before. What other pathway(s)? Any literature you can refer me to?

This source, FWIW, says that 4-EP (the ‘signature’ Band-Aid aroma) and 4-EG “are only produced by Brettanomyces”: http://www.vines.org/Docs/Text/WINE_Encyclopedia_Brettanomyces.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

@Robert.Fleming

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

@Robert.Fleming

Not necessarily. One of the dictionary definitions of ‘sappy’ is: “full of vitality and energy.” That’s essentially how I understand ‘sappy’ when applied to wine

Good point, Robert.

But, why not just say “full of vitality and energy.”?

I dunno. Perhaps for the same reason I wouldn’t write “The one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe, is kind, beneficent, and friendly” if what I wanted to convey was “God is good.”

Fair enough.

In situations like this, however, when a word has multiple meanings, and it’s unclear which meaning the author is intending, I find it’s often best to use the literal meaning to avoid such confusion.

The adjective suffix “y “ means “quality, somewhat like.” Therefore, the adjective “sappy” means “of sappy quality” or “somewhat like sap.”

While “full of vitality and energy” is undoubtedly a valid and accepted definition of “sappy,” it’s not the literal one.

[G_D_y_e_r]

@Robert.Fleming

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

@Robert.Fleming

Not necessarily. One of the dictionary definitions of ‘sappy’ is: “full of vitality and energy.” That’s essentially how I understand ‘sappy’ when applied to wine

Good point, Robert.

But, why not just say “full of vitality and energy.”?

I dunno. Perhaps for the same reason I wouldn’t write “The one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe, is kind, beneficent, and friendly” if what I wanted to convey was “God is good.”

Though perhaps depending of which version of god or gods you prefer, you’d say “Allah Akbar” or “Vishnu’s extra arms sure come in handy” or “By the beard of Zeus!” God means different things to different people.

[Wes_Barton]

@G. D y e r

@Wes Barton

@G. D y e r

Testing of several of the controversial vintages of Beaucastel showed high levels of Brett byproducts, at least in the samples tested.

Btw, while brettanomyces is (I assume) the most likely cause of the presence of the family of molecules we refer to as brett in a wine, it is not the only chemical pathway. Knowing this, a couple other wineries’ claims about specific wines makes sense. So, one test finding “brett byproducts” in Beaucastel and Pierre Perrin finding no “evidence of brett” makes sense, if he only thought it necessary to test for brettanomyces.

What if the byproducts include dead Brett yeast cells? The linked article mentioned both high levels of 4-EP and dead Brett cells were found in the bottles tested. Seems like pretty strong evidence in favor of Brett infection since both the yeast and volatile phenols were there. But it also says nothing about other bottles that perhaps had superior provenance that did not favor Brett bloom.

What are some of the other pathways? Are they capable of producing the same high levels of 4-EP as Brett?

Then they apparently were infected. In that link Perrin is only claiming Mourvedre has a larger amount of precursors (cinnamic acids) and that he philosophically disagrees with brettanomyces being termed a spoilage yeast, because in small amounts it contributes positively to wine.

@Robert.Fleming

@Wes Barton

Btw, while brettanomyces is (I assume) the most likely cause of the presence of the family of molecules we refer to as brett in a wine, it is not the only chemical pathway.

Never heard that before. What other pathway(s)? Any literature you can refer me to?

This source, FWIW, says that 4-EP (the ‘signature’ Band-Aid aroma) and 4-EG “are only produced by Brettanomyces”: http://www.vines.org/Docs/Text/WINE_Encyclopedia_Brettanomyces.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking for the source I got that from. Possibly a research paper or a text. It was once thought that lactobacilii were responsible for low levels of ethyl- and vinyl-phenols, but that is false. According to Handbook of Enology: The Chemistry of Wine vinyl phenols are created by saccharomyces and ethyl phenols can only be created by brettanomyces.

You link is wrong, in that the “band-aid” aroma is from vinyl-4-phenol. Ethyl-4-phenol is more the barnyard-y and sweaty leather aromas.

[Robert.Fleming]

@Wes Barton

Looking for the source I got that from. Possibly a research paper or a text.

Wes, I’ll be interested in whatever you can turn up. TIA.

@Wes Barton

Your link is wrong, in that the “band-aid” aroma is from vinyl-4-phenol. Ethyl-4-phenol is more the barnyard-y and sweaty leather aromas.

Maybe so, but it has lots of company. Sources for 4-EP = Band-Aid:

• Wine Education Topic: Brettanomyces Character in Wine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
• Brettanomyces - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
• http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3488/is_9_85/ai_n6245126/?tag=content;col1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
• ETS Labs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
• enologyaccess.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don’t know.
I just report, you decide.

[G_D_y_e_r]

@Wes Barton

In that link Perrin is only claiming Mourvedre has a larger amount of precursors (cinnamic acids) and that he philosophically disagrees with brettanomyces being termed a spoilage yeast, because in small amounts it contributes positively to wine.

No disagreement there–Brett is in the eye of the beholder. I like it, usually, but not always. Others fall at other points on the spectrum.

[G_D_y_e_r]

@Robert.Fleming

@Wes Barton

Looking for the source I got that from. Possibly a research paper or a text.

Wes, I’ll be interested in whatever you can turn up. TIA.

@Wes Barton

Your link is wrong, in that the “band-aid” aroma is from vinyl-4-phenol. Ethyl-4-phenol is more the barnyard-y and sweaty leather aromas.

Maybe so, but it has lots of company. Sources for 4-EP = Band-Aid:

• Wine Education Topic: Brettanomyces Character in Wine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
• Brettanomyces - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
• http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3488/is_9_85/ai_n6245126/?tag=content;col1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
• ETS Labs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
• enologyaccess.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don’t know.
I just report, you decide.

Going a bit off topic . . . . I thought 4-VG was responsible for clove-like aromas. I’ve only encountered heavy clove aromas in a beer that was using a certain yeast (Westmalle) specifically to produce 4-VG–Lagunitas Little Sumpin Wild. Apparently Westmalle is from the S. Cerevisiae family.

Anyway, I thought 4-VG and 4-VP were precursors Brett uses to make the stinker 4-EG and 4-EP, but more of the latter.

I am interested in differentiating the band-aid vs. barnyard issue, since both are associated with Brett. Perhaps this is incorrect! I tend to find more barnyard in Loire reds, whereas CA wines that are ‘Bretty’ (or perhaps it’s something else?) seem to be heavy on band-aid.

[Al_Osterheld]

The literal meaning of sappy is not that it smells like pine sap. Lots of trees and plants have sap, very few smell “piney”. So, if you mean piney, why not just say piney?

-Al

[John_Morris]

This thread is a tribute to the virtues of digression! And a fascinating one.

Thanks for all the info on what we call brett. Keep it coming, guys. Enough of that linguistics stuff.