What do reductive notes indicate about the quality of a Chardonnay (if anything)?

[GregP]

… Reduction NEVER SHOWS AS MERCAPTANS, …

Never? As in ‘ever after’? Not even one little teensy-weensy little bit? Never ever?

The least you should do at this point in the thread is follow it, from Eric, especially, and how it ties into what I said.

[Wes_Barton]

I often think I smell coffee just before I conclude the obvious skunk smell.

I often smell skunk before I conclude I was just around the corner from a Starbucks and the source is obvious. Same-same…


In tasting notes, I strongly agree with you. People should describe what they are experiencing rather than trying to guess and use some not particularly helpful or accurate term, and often enough be flat wrong in the diagnosis, anyway.

[Bobby_Moy]

Pretty much every step in the winemaking process is a consideration in redox potential. The myriad decisions in the vineyard, vinification, aging, and bottling procedures will greatly affect the resulting wine. The use of optical sorters, “closed” bladder presses, dry ice, sacrificial tannins, suspended solid consideration, stainless steel fermentation/aging, sur lie aging, lots of argon, and increasing the dissolved carbon dioxide before bottling can all reduce oxygen exposure. And those are all great for aromatic white grapes, but Chardonnay has lots of phenolics. These compounds crave oxygen and in my experience need to be given a good helping of oxygen to be stable. I’m not in the “macro-ox” camp with browning the juice before fermentation to drop out all the polyphenol oxidase, but I do believe barrel fermentations are the answer for slow oxygen integration and healthy natural fermentations. The interactions in chardonnay are very complicated. Just look at Burgundy’s reaction to the “pre-mox”. Many believe it was due to the introduction of contemporary winemaking techniques that work well for sauvignon blanc and other aromatic white varieties, but folks that used traditional techniques have found premox in their wines as well. All i can say is that yes Brandon, the winemaker absolutely considers oxygen exposure in the winemaking process. Each site/vineyard has it’s own inherent qualities that dictate these decisions and the style/direction we take.

I think this is the debate I was thinking of with regard to Burgundy. Obviously, Bobby understands it all much more than I do.

“Bobby understands…”, not at all.
…but Rilke’s words some it up well, “grasped by what we cannot grasp…and changes us, even if we do not reach it…”

[Otto_Forsberg]

The most likely components of a real struck match aroma probably contain phosphorus and not sulfur, but obviously our sense of smell can associate different things with different aromas

While it is true the match head contains mostly phosphorus, to my understanging the distinctive struck match smell of a real match comes partly from sulfur compounds.

Here’s a small quote from wikipedia:

the match head is typically composed of 45–55% potassium chlorate, with a little sulfur and starch, a neutralizer (ZnO or CaCO
3), 20–40% of siliceous filler, diatomite, and glue.

[Alan_Rath]

This time around my googling turned up some better links. It never made any sense to me that there could be sulfides or mercaptans produced in a match strike; it’s an oxidizing environment, whatever’s there has to be… oxidized (as in SO2), not reduced. Here are some links that (assuming they are accurate) describe some of the chemistry involved:

The Chemistry of Matches

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/about-this-show/how-matches-work/

Matches

Chemistry Science Videos | Reactions - American Chemical Society

How Do Matches Work?

I still think the most likely explanation of the “struck match” aroma in wine is some combination of SO2 and another compound, but what that is I don’t know.

[Jay_Miller]

Got it. That’s helpful…thank you. Do winemakers purposefully adjust exposure to oxygen in the winemaking process? It would seem to me that, in general, oxygen exposure would be avoided at almost any cost in most winemaking situations. Do some Chardonnay producers allow a little bit of exposure, and those making Chardonnay in a purposefully-reductive style allow less?

I don’t think this is all very simple.

There was for a while a school of thought in German winemaking praising reductive wines. The “father” of this was Hans-Gunter Schwarz https://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/25/garden/out-of-obscurity-into-a-wine-pantheon.html He had a number of followers. I think this is not as popular in Germany as it once was (Schwarz has been retired for a number of years). The Muller-Catoir wines made by Schwarz had wonderful fruit young and got big scores (and were quite tasty) but the wines tended not to age that well. I remember a TBA from Rieslaner that was wonderful young but eventually turned very dark brown and lost all of its fruit.

[David_Glasser]

I’m not sure everyone even means the same thing when they write “struck match,” let alone the other terms. There seems to be agreement in this thread regarding the smell, if not the compounds responsible for it. But I’ve seen people use “struck match” for the burning and stinging sensation in the nose that I’ve always thought is caused by high levels of SO2 (is that correct?). While a struck match will produce that sensation, I’ve always used the term for the smell, not the stinging or burning.

[Alan_Rath]

I’m not sure everyone even means the same thing when they write “struck match,” let alone the other terms. There seems to be agreement in this thread regarding the smell, if not the compounds responsible for it. But I’ve seen people use “struck match” for the burning and stinging sensation in the nose that I’ve always thought is caused by high levels of SO2 (is that correct?). While a struck match will produce that sensation, I’ve always used the term for the smell, not the stinging or burning.

Same here. I’m sure different people mean different things when they write that (along with lots of other descriptors). Of course “reductive” is an even broader, less distinct term.

Maybe we need a thread asking what someone means when they write “struck match”, but I’m reluctant to start that circus

[Brandon_R]

Since I’m clearly such a moron what with my lack of education in chemistry and winemaking, I have another question. Are Chardonnays produced in a more creamy, lush style exposed to more oxygen in the winemaking process? I assume part of the recipe is riper grapes, likely also some malolactic fermentation, maybe the oak regimine, etc., but I rarely (never?) notice aromas I associate with Chardonnay made in a reductive style with forward, lush Chardonnay. However, those with that temporary sulfurous aroma are almost always more lean, racy, citrus-and-mineral drive in style. Coincidence, stylistic choice, what?