What do I need to know about Riesling clones, soil and rootstocks?

WINE TALK
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For Pinot noir, Chardonnay and Nebbiolo there is from time to time discussion and deep dives here but I cannot recall reading much in detail here about Riesling (if I missed it, please share links here!).

The comment from @Lars_Carlberg in this reshared post reminded me that I after reading it the first time wanted to start this thread:

https://www.wineberserkers.com/t/2023-german-harvest/306139/3?u=mikael_ob

Given that’s it’s a very old variety, excels in different areas, can be made in all possible styles, arguably is the greatest (white) variety in the world - what’s worth knowing and geeking out about when it comes to clones and rootstocks?

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I would add soil type. I think this is critical to seeing the differences between rieslings. I think clones is a very interesting topic and would love to learn more.

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Great addition and would more than welcome a broader take with interesting related drifts!

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@LisaT can help here

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I think the main thing to geek about is if vines are own rooted ( aka. these ancient pre-phylloxera era vines that you mainly still find in Mosel if we are speaking from Germany) or crafted. Basically all newly planted rieslings or any other varieties are crafted with a couple of different rootstocks mainly being SO4. @Lars_Carlberg can correct this if I’m wrong but I don’t think this affect that much to fruit rather than how the young vines will perform on different soil type when planted. Ungrafted vines however are very different also because their age and are tend to produce “better wines”. At least growers are sure about it :D. Edit: as for different clones I have no idea :smiley: .

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The concept of ‘ungrafted produce better wines’ is still something that sounds right but I’m not sure if a ‘proven fact’. Would love to hear more thoughts on this.

Cheers

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A fascinating observation I can rarely remember an instance of clones coming up in conversation over several hundred visits with German winemakers. Just the opposite in Napa where they are still learning. In Napa I can almost tell if I am going to like the wine by rootstock. XR-1 nope, St George most likely.

Clones have become more a topic in Germany around Pinot discussions because I think it is extremely important to the future of Pinot.

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This is a good topic and I’ve never really thought about it much. I recently visited Northern Rhone and if you ask them about clones, they tend to get a pianed expression on their face due to what clones have done or will do to their region. However, I dont think I’ve ever heard anything about Riesling clones or rootstock.

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Take this with a huge grain of salt coming from a wine geek who has tried a lot wines but has no science or farming experience to back it up. I think ownrooted vines can producer bigger, more complex wines with lower abv/ripeness.

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It can never be “proven” but the depth and balance of Rieslings from ungrafted vines is just different. Better is up to the taster.

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It’s not my expertise, but there are many different Riesling clones and rootstocks. The type of soil, such as slate or limestone, plays a role in deciding which clones and rootstocks to choose from. Some producers prefer massal selection to clones. Even though it’s illegal, certain producers have planted ungrafted versus grafted vines.

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While it may seem that ungrafted vines are rare creatures, when I started making wine in Oregon about 40% of vineyards were own rooted.

Over the years I’ve worked with quite a bit of ungrafted vines, mostly Pinot Noir, and, while un-romantic, my opinion is that with a good rootstock choice there’s little qualitative difference.

Tasting bottles it’s easy to see things that we would like to see in them. But in tasting over quite a few years from fermenter, barrel, and bottle. This was my personal opinion:

Durant Blocks, Dundee Hills volcanic soils:
Bishop-old vine own rooted Pommard was consistently second fiddle to the grafted block of 114 we also get from directly below it. As the grafted block has aged (from 12 year old vines my first year to 25 years old now) it is showing even greater depth and layers of nuance.
Caveat-row orientation of the Bishop block was not ideal.

Fir Crest-both Block 11 and Block 8 are grafted. In 2019 we took the oldest block of PN as well that are ungrafted. The quality difference was definitely weighted to the grafted vines.
Caveat-this was a one year experiment so hardly a fair study. Though the difference in quality was big enough that I opted not to continue.
In my opinion, there are a lot of micro-climat variations at Fir Crest and Block 11 and Block 8 are well situated to gain the most from some of those variables. That’s not really a graft issue, but I would absolutely say that I don’t think ungrafted vines in a middling terroir will equal or surpass grafted vines in a better micro-climat.

Bishop Creek-old vine ungrafted Yamhill-Carlton fruit. The grafted vines were young vines. The wines from the old vines were more sophisticated and layered. The younger more fruit forward and straightforward as well. Graft or vine age, who knows?

Whistling Ridge-the original blocks were own rooted. Over time there has been replanting with grafted vines on a plant by plant basis. But at no point have I ever felt the best quality wines were coming from the original blocks. I like the original Wadensville block quite a lot, but the best wines always come from the multi-clonal, and multi-rootstock block called Beloved. It’s the material for 90% of the Heritage wines produced from the vineyard over the years.

I’d love to say it was all about ungrafted vines but it’s just not my experience. Though all of the Riesling I have worked with is from grafted plants, so maybe Riesling is different.

But I would guess that site and vine age are still the most important factors.

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That vine age thing can be significant - at least the difference. You know the 110+ year old vines that Carl Loewen took over from Schmitt-Wagner. Then there’s the 100+ year old vines that go into the Selbach Ur Alte Reben. Those wines have a level of gravity that is just different.

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When discussing this at Quinta do Noval which has the Nacional vineyard smack dab in the middle of the larger vineyard, they say the wines are not necessarily better, just different. Some years favor one over the other and other years vice versa.

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Super interesting Marcus, thanks for sharing.

As a few others I might have that romantic emotion about ungrafted vines.

In red wines I think the lower alcohol as Robert mentioned is the main thing I have noticed. When it comes to the white wines then I have the impression that there is a certain density/weight to the wines in addition.

But my sample sizes is relatively small (6-7 different white wines over a few different vintages).

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Hmm…my experience leans that for red wines vine age has an impact on alcohol levels (old vines have less energy for green growth and produce smaller leaves and less of them) but I haven’t seen that from grafted vs ungrafted.

To be fair though, there are a lot of farming impacts that can affect abv levels. It would take a pretty comprehensive study to determine where the vectors for lower alcohol come from. Wind, cover crop, irrigation or lack there of, and even things like leaf roll virus can impact abv in finished wines.

I am 100% with you regarding whites. It’s always an impression of depth or density.

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Don’t the St George Rootstock plantings in Napa (i.e. Kronos) also tend to be significantly older? FWIW I think rootstock absolutely has an effect… too many variables at play for me personally to say, but one thing’s for sure, I doubt I could identify ungrafted/grafted or a certain rootstock tasting blind.

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We had been “patching up” (i.e., replacing dead vines with new ones) in certain parcels over the past month. Today, I came across several plant passports. The clone is from Geisenheim. Its origin is from an old vineyard on the Mosel from 1896. It can only be the one in Longuicher Maximiner Herrenberg. The rootstock is SO 4.

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Truth. Those old Schmitt-Wagner wines were really something.

Also, I find a level of depth and lightness in Meulenhof’s Alte Reben Spätlese from the older/ungrafted vine plot in Erdener Treppchen (the one that wasn’t touched during flurbereinigung) that just isn’t there in their other Treppchen Kabinett/Spätlese.

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New insight on rootstock in general: