What are the Iconic wines of Germany?

WINE TALK
21

My point exactly. Personally, I don’t really find the wines that subtle, to say the least. Apparently, great Riesling does not have to be subtle, or so they tell me. Well, in my world it does :slight_smile:

22

Lucky for you, I don’t think there’s anything to worry about, other than with a chosen few that may get very high ratings, etc. It just doesn’t seem like a region prone to that sort of thing, but thought I’d ask just in case and to get a better idea of what I can bury in the cellar for decades. I can enjoy some every day German wines like the next guy, but then I’m also looking to cellar some of Germany’s top wines. Thanks for the responses.

23

So I do not even remotely claim to be an expert in German Riesling, I do love it. I would say the two that stick out to me are

Egon Mueller Scharz… Ya, I can’t spell that, but a few people listed it

and

Keller G-Max

I’ve never tried either but they are spoken of very highly.

A wine that is way too new to be in the conversation but if you ask me is very good and interesting in each vintage is Selbach-Oster Rotlay. It is just damn good wine, not Iconic in anyway, but a wine that every vintage I try to find because I want to see how it shows…

24

Not sure Selbach-Oster’s Rotlay is really that new, if we have the G-Max on the list. The G-Max has, as far as I know, only been made for something in the region of two weeks, or something like that :slight_smile:. While the wine is certainly impressive (although not to my taste), I certainly wouldn’t mention it in the same breath as tried-and-true, time-honoured grandees such as Pruem’s WS SL, Egon Mueller’s wines, von Schubert’s wines, Kallstadter Saumagen, etc.
Maybe I’m just being overly conservative :slight_smile:

25

Robert,

I have no problem with any question about German wines. There are dozens of fine producers in every region such as Mosel, Nahe, Rheinhessen, Rheingau etc. Therry Theise is a top source for information and bottles of fine German Riesling.

If you wish to cellar your wines for decades it would be a good idea to buy Auslese quality. These wines are pretty sweet when young but turn into something more balanced with age. I recommend Prüm, Schäfer and Haag as examples for that style. If you like Sauternes I recommend to buy Beerenauslese and Trockenbeerenauslese. The best of these are as good as any Sauternes you know – but very pricey as the emerge in tiny quantities.

If you like dry table wines I would recommend to taste some Erstes or Grosses Gewächs. These wines are best at age 3 to 10 depending on the vintage. It is difficult to recommend certain producers because there are so many. It really depends on the micro climate and the vintage. The most fun may be to buy a good wine from Mosel, Rheingau, Rheinhessen, Pfalz (from north to south) to experience the differences in a given vintage.

Try to find a trocken Spätlese from Haag (Mosel/Master of Elegance) and the same from Wittmann (Rheinhessen/Finesse), Künstler (Rheingau/Hedonism) and Rebholz (Pfalz/a bit of everything). Then you have very good samples of different climates and styles. The most expensive wines are the Grosses and Erstes Gewächs. But you can find wines below that category (Spätlese trocken) which are a bit cheaper and fine anyway.

And please try to understand my argument: Something like the best German Riesling does´t exist. This is nothing but a marketing b—sh… . It depends on your individual taste, your experience, the vintage, the micro climate, the handling of the bottles (shipping and storage) and probably a million other aspects. I really hope that Germany will not become the next Vosne, Chambertin, Pauilliac or whatever where people with tons of cash ruin a centuries old culture.

26

The Rotlay bottling did not start until 2004, so it’s pretty new.

27

Robert,

Do you like decades old German Riesling? What wines with decades of age have you liked?

28

A very good list in my opinion, but I would consider including Schäfer-Fröhlich’s Felseneck Riesling and substituing the Breuer with Weil’s Kiedricher Gräfenberg Riesling Erstes Gewächs

29

Same here with the GG. I liked his RR though, which I found different and with a special personality (read: flavour profile).

30

I approach iconic differently, starting with terroir. To me these are the terroirs that have stood the test of time and been considered great terroirs over long periods of time. [Obviously, more could be added]

Schartzhofberger - Egon Mueller is the iconic producer
Maximin Grunhauser Abtsberg - von Schubert is the iconic producer
Saarburger Rausch - Zilliken is the iconic producer
Piesporter Goldtropchen - Rheinhold Haart is the iconic producer
Bernkastler Doktor - I don’t believe that there is currently an iconic producer
Wehlener Sonnenuhr - JJ Prum is the iconic producer
Graacher Dombropst - Schaeffer is the iconic producer
Brauneberger Juffer Sonnenuhr - Schloss Lieser and Fritz Haag
Zeltinger Sonnenuhr - Selbach
Niederhauser Hermannshohle - Donnhoff
Oberhauser Brucke - Donnhoff
Schlossbockelheimer Kupfergrube - Donnhoff
Erbacher Marcobrunn - None, lots of underachievers
Schloss Johanisberg - None, underachiever
Raulenthauler Baiken - None, underachievers
Schloss Vollrads - None, underachiever
Steinberger - None, underachiever
Forster Kirchenstück - Burklin-Wolf

31

Jurgen - great post.

Regarding the Grosses Gewächs however, those have only been around since the 1990s and personally, I’m not sure I get the point. I used to taste a lot of them when they’d come out and I always thought that it was kind of a shame - Germany stood on its own and didn’t need to emulate France and I never found the extra money worth paying so I stopped trying those wines.

But the main question for Robert is what David raised - which dry German whites has he enjoyed? Many can age and they will transform, as others have pointed out, but whether he really likes them more with age or not is a more fundamental issue. I would suggest trying a number of older ones before starting to stock up on recommendations from other people. Just my 2 cts.

32

I’m going to claim this should read all wines from the H.G. Schwarz era (2001 and earlier) but especially scheurebe and rieslaner. No one has the same feel for them that he did.

33

I like his scheurebe, but have never found it to be in the same class as his riesling or rieslaner.

34

[shock.gif] [smileyvault-ban.gif]

35

David, Greg

Re: Tasting older Rieslings, that sounds like a good idea. I haven’t had many but have liked the effects of 8-10 years on mid level Spatlese Rieslings, and figure to go higher quality, sweeter, large formats, etc. based on what I’m hearing for longer term cellaring.

Greg, I’ve heard our pal Dave M. talk about 40-50 year old Auslese (maybe even Spat) as pure ambroisa, and in the years of talking wine with him it’s pretty clear we have a similar palate. Leading to another question, I suppose some of Germany has moved to a more modern approach with earlier accessibility and less aging potential?

36

I interpreted the original question to be asking something along the lines of, “What are the German wines you are likely to see in one of those typical boring auctions with boatloads of DRC, Roumier, and Rousseau and where the only Alsace wine is Clos Ste. Hune.” The easy answer is JJ Prum and Egon Muller. But if your interest is just in great stuff you can cellar for decades there is a whole lot bigger of a universe to choose from. (Start with JJ Prum anyway though.)

37

Thanks, and if I haven’t already alluded to it the word Iconic was used mainly as a device to help generate discussion. Not particularly interested in overspending for labels.

38

Do check that you like older wines, with few exceptions I prefer 20 year old Riesling to 30 year old.

39

Greg,

first of all: thanks.

You are right that Großes Gewächs and Erstes Gewächs are not always better than wines below that category. But yeah – vintners in Germany heard for decades that they are idiots in marketing. That they need a quality system everybody outside Germany with a brain inside the head can understand. It took a while and then it made klick. Let´s duplicate the French Model with Premier or Grand Cru and village level wines. And here we go. Over the last 5 years or so the prices for these type of wines got higher and higher. A handful of producer is at or above 50 Euros already here in Germany. I guess way more in the US. I promise: this is not the end of the story.

While I do understand every producer who wants to get as much money for his product as possible I see problems anyway. Old clients who bought for decades (like me) are priced out and a totally new clientele comes into play. The image will change. Wine is something for the rich. Younger people stop drinking wine. You can see this trend in our restaurants. While it was common to have a glass of wine with your Lunch or Dinner younger people order Softdrinks or beer. Even in the wine growing areas. A decent bottle of German Riesling is at least 40 Euros at Restaurants now. A glass costs almost 10 Euros. A beer 3,50. This does´t sound alarming first. But over a longer period of time this has an effect. And not a positive one. IMO.

We have to rethink the situation: production costs for a really fine bottle of wine are rarely more than 10 Euros. If a producer has a markup of 100% he makes a really good profit. Isn´t that enough? Obviously not. And when the speculators come finally into play the game is totally over. I hope this won´t happen with German Riesling. But who knows. Therefore I wished all this so called Wine Advocates would stay outside of my homeland because they are part of the hype machine. If they will or not. Even people like me who recommend certain producers are a small part of the game. I recommend the wines I love only to learn that one time I am not wealthy enough to afford a Haag Juffer Sonnenuhr anymore which is for me the pinnacle of subtle elegance.

(I do not overstate my influence. It is small and even not existent. But if 10 people recommend a certain producer at the same time the story may be different.)

40

Juergen, I sympathise with your point of view. I’ve seen this pattern materialise over and over again with many of my favourite producers over the years.
Sometimes it wasn’t even so much about me no longer being able to cough up the cash. In many of these instances, I was still able to afford the wines, but they just became part of a scene that was no longer in line with my world view and convictions, so it was me who bailed out. I don’t mind making an effort to track down a rare wine that I happen to like, but I have no interest in playing a part in this silly allocation game (case in point just recently, Clos Rougeard - love the wines dearly, but, oh well, I guess I’ll survive :slight_smile: )
I’m quite used to it by now. Given my tastes and preferences, though, being based in Europe and able to travel and taste around definitely has certain advantages, and I suppose the same applies to you. If you are willing to shift your own paradigm a bit every once in a while, there’s nearly always something exciting around the corner.