WB Burgundy Appellation Series Week 10: Aloxe-Corton+

WINE TALK
41

Just to add to the confusion, a climat can consist of more than one lieudit. So, for example at Corton, the climat Les Perrières contains the lieudits Perrières and le village. Another example: at Volnay, the climat Les Angles consists of the lieudit Les Angles and part of the lieudit Les Pointes dAngles.

42

This is interesting but it makes my head hurt.

43

Claude,
The Faiveley website refers to the appeals court decision granting the name Clos des Cortons Faiveley as being 1937, not 1930. I’m sure your knowledge of this is better than mine, however.

I have seen those BIVB lists before. It could be a rather casual use of the word “climat”, or it could be that I’m completely wrong in my explanation above. The BIVB website gives such a list, for example, for each 1er cru of Gevrey, Morey, Chambolle, etc. Since Clos des Cortons Faiveley is an approved label name, maybe it just shows up there…? Who knows. I am 99% certain that Jasper Morris’ book regards Clos des Cortons Faiveley as part of the climat Rognet et Corton, and Morris does include the surface area (in hectares) of each of the climats of Corton. Not that his book consitutes proof, it could be wrong too… [soap.gif]

Clearly, the official appellation controlee is simply Corton, as it is for all the reds from any part of the grand cru. Officially there are only three grand crus: Corton, Corton-Charlemagne, and the rarely-used Charlemagne.

44

I can report that INAO does not enter into discussions of lieux dits (generally)…irrespective of motivation. :wink: This is not a bad thing, not a bad thing at all. [cheers.gif]

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Mike, as Don said above, this is making my head hurt also. I still have trouble with the distinction between climat and lieu-dit. I guess my main point is that INAO permits a red wine from Corton to be labeled as Appellation Corton Controlee. And if all the grapes are from Les Bressandes, the label can say Corton-Les Bressandes followed by Appellation Corton Controlee. And so INAO recognizes and endorses the boundaries of Bressandes, I would think. In the link Claude provided ( here ) there is a list of Corton climats and lieux-dits, but Clos des Cortons Faiveley is not on either. So I think INAO regards it as a “brand name” that is approved by a specific court decision.

46

Lew – Consulting several books, it looks as though there were two legal actions. The 1930 decision allowed Faiveley to continue to use the brand name “Clos des Cortons” provided they appended “Faiveley” to it so there would be no confusion. (Faiveley would have ben most happy to comply with that condition). This is parallel to Louis Latour’s action recognizing and allowing them to use the brand name “Château Corton-Grancey.” Then, after the AOC was formed, Faiveley brought a second action to validate the fact that they still could use “Clos des Cortons Faiveley.” From the website, it’s not clear if the issue in this second action was the use of a name that was not a climat, the use of the name Faiveley, or perhaps both.

47

Ah yes…confusion and head hurt. [truce.gif]

Wait until we go to Chassagne-Montrachet with its 52 1ieme Cru climats ( which was reported by Coates in his 1st Edition of Cote D’Or) or 59 ( which was reported by J-F Bazin in his Le Montrachet).

But…have no hear, Claude is here [cheers.gif] [winner.gif]

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Hi Lew, I was not thinking Clos des Cortons Faiveley, but the use of climat and lieu-dit in general. As Ray says "I can report that INAO does not enter into discussions of lieux dits (generally)…” So, it was just that the sensible thing for the INAO to call the climat after the lieu-dit names, names that I expect have been in existence for centuries. Because the INAO is the official body, to me, “climat” holds more weight than “lieu-dit”, and where both are the same, I prefer to use “climat”. This would take care of those situations which Claude highlights where there are several lieu-dit to one climat. For my own simple reference the hierarchy is AOC → Commune->Climat->Lieu-dit->Monopole/Other, not to say that these all need to exist, or that there is no crossover… my head hurts as well rolleyes Cheers Mike

49

+1, I’m with you Don. (But my inner geek is smiling nonetheless)

50

WTF, Steve, is was YOU that brought up the Clos des Cortons question to begin with… neener

Seriously, I have long believed that Corton and the surrounding communes of Ladoix-Serrigny, Aloxe-Corton, and Pernand-Vergelesses are the most complicated and most difficult to grasp sector of Burgundy. Part of that is that three communes contribute to one grand cru, and in materially different ways too. And many maps are commune-specific. I’ve spent hours trying to piece together the maps of Ladoix, Aloxe, and Pernand. So I’ll repeat the link to the best on-line map of this area that I have seen… ( link ).

Also, it is a shame that the great Pernand 1er cru Ile de Vergelesses doesn’t get more respect… one of the truely elite 1ers of the Cote de Beaune, and wines from classy domaines such as Chandon de Briailles and Rapet Pere & fils can be scooped up for circa $35. I wish I had some mature examples to open this week.

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Excellent map Lew. I like this quite a bit. Thanks. Thanks to all for the interesting discussion here. Burgundy is complicated at times when it comes to geography but always fun.

Re: Pernand 1er. A few years ago I had a 1978 Rapet Pernand Vergelesses Ile de Vergelesses at Le Charlemagne. I think it was around 100 euro on the list. An absolutely stellar wine that really showed me how these wines age and what a great terroir Pernand can be.

Cheers.

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2002 Prince Florent de Merode Corton-Les Renardes. - My note below of this in 05, I see I posted on Cellartracker, is pretty consistent to now. Perhaps a little more spice, blacker fruit, earth and sap coming through today, and more depth and weight, tannins are firm but fine. Still a baby.
My 2005 note:
Aroma - Earthy, underbrush, red cherries, raspberries and quite floral
Palate - Lovely fruit, red cherries but also savoury. Good mid palate fatness moving on to a lifting light and slightly drying long finish. Good tannins and balance. This has great aging potential. I really liked this.
Thinking that this is now with DRC I can see the structure heading between Grand Echezeaux and Richebourg.

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This is why we all like to talk to each other. Nobody else could stand how complicated all this is. But, I love it.

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Excellent producers. Excellent terroir. Good prices. What is the problem? Why exactly would we want Ile de Vergelesses to get more attention?

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Coates…said ( in his Cote D’Or ) …Ile de Vergelesses is a canditat for promotion.

that the great Pernand 1er cru Ile de Vergelesses doesn’t get more respect

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Yeah, guess I’m a glutton for punishment [wow.gif] .
But seriously, this discussion is fascinating and exactly why I spend so much (too much?) time hanging out here!

Great interactive map, BTW. I don’t think I had seen that one before. Thanks for sharing the link.

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I have respect for the Chandon de Briailles wines, but I’ve never had an Ile de Vergelesses that remotely resembled a Grand Cru. I started buying them in 93 and have had 93,94,96,98, but then stopped buying because the price went up and I wondered if I was chasing the right wine. I did buy 2003 after tasting it and figuring that Pernand, having a little trouble getting enough sun, would be a good bet in such a vintage. The 93’s all had a raisiny quality that the estate acknowledged. 94 was admittedly not a great year. I’m not sure that 96 and 98 were great Pernand years either, but I have a 96 tee’d up for an upcoming tasting. One thing I’ve learned about Pernand is that it helps to have the Corton type patience with these wines.

Are there any vintages that someone can vouch for with regard to a Chandon dB Ile de Vergelesses showing GC quality?

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John…I am not able to have any meaning discussion as I do not have enought experience re Ile de Vergelesses and I have no expeirence with the pruducer : Chandon de Briailles .

Very sorry… [truce.gif]

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So, just back from Savigny visiting Chandon de Briailles, tasting:

Corton Bressandes 05, 06, 08
Ile de Vergelesses 1er Cru 01, 06, 07, 08, 09
Ile de Vergelesses 1er Cru Blanc 07

Truly impressive terroir on display. And the winemaking couldn’t be more courteous in allowing the fruit to take center stage. As for whether or not it can deliver Grand Cru quality wines is something I cannot pretend the ability to speak to. Though I can say that these wines, without question are some of the most interesting, complex, and focused wines in the Côte. With all these things intellectual items considered, they are first pleasurable. I imagine that I will be making many trips to Savigny in the future. And while I don’t drink white wines too often, the blanc made an exacting impression on me.

As an aside, they had a mettoyage agreement on some Volnay 1er Cru Caillettes up until 2009 I believe. We didn’t try it this time as we didn’t know of it until in the office, but I bought a few and will be going back to taste more in a week or two.

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Outside of Clive’s book and a particular producer that owns property in Ile des Vergelesses, I’ve never heard anyone proclaim that it should be a grand cru.

With respect to A. Jullien’s Topographie de Tous les Vignobles Connus that I referred to in the Gevrey thread, it’s interesting that in the original (1816) edition he puts Corton at the head of his second class, but in subsequent editions he jumps it to first class and ahead of the following which round out his first class vineyards: Clos de Premeau (I’m still running down what this is today), Porets in Nuits, Musigny, Amoureuses, Hauts-Douais (Hauts-Doix) in Chambolle, Clos-du-Tart (sic) and Clos de la Roche in Morey, la Martoie (la Maltroie) and Clos St-Jean in Chassagne (!), and la Perrière in Fixin. Above Corton in this first class were, in order, Romanée-Conti, Chambertin, Richebourg, Clos-Vougeot (but noting different qualities depending on exact location, even though there was but a single owner at this time), Ronmanée-St-Vivant, La Tâche, and Les St-Georges.