Varietals similar to Nebbiolo?

[Otto_Forsberg]

As I mentioned, no experience with aged Carema wines. My reference points goes to 90s, 00s and 10s for barolo and barbaresco wines. Had a couple of Barolo wines from the 60s but as those bottles were not what they should have been, I leave that out of the equation.

Yes, well, Barolo and Barbaresco are VERY different thing altogether from Carema - especially those older wines when the region was even cooler than how it is now.

With enough time all wines will finally taste more or less the same. > >

Well, that’s true. However, I’m not talking about wines that have gotten so oxidative (or oxidized) that they taste like, well, old wine. Even if an old Bordeaux and old Barolo would’ve lost all their primary fruit notes, they’d still be easily distinguishable from each other. However, I’d argue that old Colares and old Carema / Alto Piemonte Nebbiolo share so many similar qualities that they’d be quite easily confused for each other, especially if not tasting them immediately side-by-side. Not that much aromatically, because Nebbiolo is its own thing altogether, but for almost everything else. However, you’d not confuse Colares for an old Barolo / Barbaresco, because they are much further apart from each other.

The OP was looking for alternatives for Nebbiolo and if I recall the QPR was kind of the focus point (might mix up the postings?).

The QPR thread was a different thing.

For me personally tasting them both (Carema and Ramisco/Colares) reasonably close time/age span and releases I don’t see much similarities. In 90 years and 50 years wines from these two regions/grapes will taste more or less the same… I take your word for it but I do think at that age/phase more regions/grapes start having similar taste profile and not sure it’s as much about the grape specific taste anymore though can be highly enjoyable and a remarkable experience nonetheless.

Well, I could also say a Colares from the 1960’s and Carema or Gattinara from the 1960’s. However, those two 1960’s Colares wines that I’ve had had somewhat odd and sappy, green note to them which I’d never find in a Nebbiolo, which is why I didn’t use them in my original comparison. Nevertheless, the stylistic differences are still remarkably minuscule between these styles. And like I said before, I don’t mean these wines need to be so old they all feel and taste like each other (and I don’t know how long one should age Colares before it reaches that phase, since even the 1930’s Colares wines I’ve had have been remarkably youthful for their age!).

[Markus_S]

Schioppettino have the elegance, balance and possibility to transform and change like a Barolo, however the peppery tones pulls a bit to N.Rhone as well.

I was going to offhandedly suggest that until that last bit that you mention. Plus, the deep color makes it an outlier, tending to a blacker-purple.

[Markus_S]

I would never compare nebbiolo and aglianico. Tannin is the only thing they have in common. Aglianico is dark and dense, and the aromatics bear no resemblance to nebbiolo.

Yet in a blind tasting with seasoned Italy drinkers everybody guessed first either Barolo or Barbaresco when it was a 1970 Mastroberardino. Extremely Nebbiolo-like, down to the clear and quite translucent garnet red color.

Well I guess any wine can taste “similar” after 50-years in bottle. Not sure what this proves. Tasting anything blind will give you lots of wild guesses. Although I didn’t drink Mastroberadino’s 1968 Riserva blind, in no way would I have said it was nebbiolo.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Well I guess any wine can taste “similar” after 50-years in bottle. Not sure what this proves. Tasting anything blind will give you lots of wild guesses. Although I didn’t drink Mastroberadino’s 1968 Riserva blind, in no way would I have said it was nebbiolo.

Haven’t had that one myself, but a quick glance in CT for this wine gives - among others - these kinds of results:

It looked and smelled like an old nebbiolo, brownish color, some tar and floral herbs on nose.
Expressive nose that closely resembles Barolo, mostly dry dark fruit, black cherry, cherry liqueur, dry figs, fruitcake, roasted nut, charred steak and dark spices.

So while you might not confuse this particular wine, or any other Aglianico, for a Nebbiolo - especially if not tasted blind - it doesn’t mean some other people would not.

[Tvrtko_C]

However, those two 1960’s Colares wines that I’ve had had somewhat odd and sappy, green note to them which I’d never find in a Nebbiolo that I didn’t mention them in my original comparison.

Oh well… an itsy bitsy tiny thing, perhaps, but, at least theoretically, it is exactly something like this that might prove to be a game changer to some experienced tasters. Just saying… Nonetheless, more power to you for what eventually amounts to full disclosure and a truly stunning level of detail!

[Tvrtko_C]

Still haunted by that lingonberry, though. I’ve certainly had more than my fill of aged Carema (and Donnas, probably the only wine that can be meaningfully compared to Carema), but I have never once come across lingonberry. Are we 100% positive it’s lingonberry we’re talking about?

[Otto_Forsberg]

Still haunted by that lingonberry, though. I’ve certainly had more than my fill of aged Carema (and Donnas, probably the only wine that can be meaningfully compared to Carema), but I have never once come across lingonberry. Are we 100% positive it’s lingonberry we’re talking about?

Is that the thing that disturbs you the most? Yes, it’s lingonberry to me, but lingonberry is what I can find in most high-acid and somewhat astringent red wines - not just in Carema or Colares. It’s something I can easily pick up in eg. a cooler-climate Pinot Noir or a Sangiovese. Quite similar to sour cherry but without the cherry part, just a general tart red-toned fruit. A taste I’m pretty familiar with, seeing how lingonberries grow basically everywhere in Finland.

So what I find in these wines is that dry, noticeably tart, slightly astringent red fruit that I wouldn’t describe as sour cherry.

[Tvrtko_C]

Still haunted by that lingonberry, though. I’ve certainly had more than my fill of aged Carema (and Donnas, probably the only wine that can be meaningfully compared to Carema), but I have never once come across lingonberry. Are we 100% positive it’s lingonberry we’re talking about?

Is that the thing that disturbs you the most? Yes, it’s lingonberry to me, but lingonberry is what I can find in most high-acid and somewhat astringent red wines - not just in Carema or Colares. It’s something I can easily pick up in eg. a cooler-climate Pinot Noir or a Sangiovese. Quite similar to sour cherry but without the cherry part, just a general tart red-toned fruit. A taste I’m pretty familiar with, seeing how lingonberries grow basically everywhere in Finland.

So what I find in these wines is that dry, noticeably tart, slightly astringent red fruit that I wouldn’t describe as sour cherry.

Disturbs?!! Might be a language issue, but I specifically said “haunted”, and that is exactly what I meant. Other than that, I am actually having loads of fun and enjoying this thread a great deal, much more fun and intriguing than most . So, yes, indeed, lingonberry. It may not be what I sniff or chew on every night before I go to bed, but I’ve come across it, too. It’s just that, as I wrote, I’ve never come across it in an aged Carema or Donnas. Doesn’t mean you haven’t, in a manner of speaking. I was just double-checking and thanks for confirming

Very often, when something like this comes up, I am reminded of something Franco Biondi Santi (who probably knew a thing or two about wine, and I’d even wager to say probably much more than two wankers on a wine bulletin board will ever know…) once said in an interview: “Tutte cose molto soggettive, i profumi. Dipende molto da cosa hai mangiato, se hai digerito o no, se sei allegro, se hai litigato con la moglie. Nelle mie degustazioni non mi soffermo quasi mai sul nome da dare ai sentori, i fattori oggettivi determinanti sono altri”. (“It’s all very subjective stuff, the aromas. It really depends on what you’ve just had for lunch, whether you have already digested your food or not, whether you’re happy or sad, or perhaps you and your wife have just had a falling-out. When I taste, I hardly ever try to nail individual aromas. The objective factors that really matter lie elsewhere”).

I mean, sure… molecules are real… but they are also, more often than not, very volatile and subject to a thousand different factors, both objective AND subjective.

In other words… lingonberry schlingonberry

[Otto_Forsberg]

Disturbs?!! Might be a language issue, but I specifically said “haunted”, and that is exactly what I meant.

Probably a poor choice of words, meant it in the sense that is that the thing that keeps bugging you?

Other than that, I am actually having loads of fun and enjoying this thread a great deal, much more fun and intriguing than most > > .

Very much the same here!

Very often, when something like this comes up, I am reminded of something Franco Biondi Santi (who probably knew a thing or two about wine, and I’d even wager to say probably much more than two wankers on a wine bulletin board will ever know…) once said in an interview: “Tutte cose molto soggettive, i profumi. Dipende molto da cosa hai mangiato, se hai digerito o no, se sei allegro, se hai litigato con la moglie. Nelle mie degustazioni non mi soffermo quasi mai sul nome da dare ai sentori, i fattori oggettivi determinanti sono altri”. (“It’s all very subjective stuff, the aromas. It really depends on what you’ve just had for lunch, whether you have already digested your food or not, whether you’re happy or sad, or perhaps you and your wife have just had a falling-out. When I taste, I hardly ever try to nail individual aromas. The objective factors that really matter lie elsewhere”).

There’s nothing I wouldn’t agree with! I’ll be the first to admit that my tasting notes are not a scientific, immutable list of elements found in the wine, but instead a list of things that pop into my head while tasting the wine - and they might change considerably if the same, identical wine is tasted blind on two consecutive days. I consider some elements more easy to pick up - like oak, herbaceous notes like bell pepper or currant leaves, black pepper, honey, roses and flaws and faults like brett, TCA, acetic acid, acetaldehyde, geosmin, ethyl acetate or isoamyl acetate - but different fruit elements are much harder. Wines that might be apple and peach or raspberry and lingonberry one day might be lemon and cantaloupe or wild strawberry and sour cherry the next. Sometimes the fruit aromas are quite obvious, but more often they are not - the wine smells just like, well, wine. The fruit descriptors are there to guide the mind into the correct direction how the taste was like, not to describe it verbatim!

Nevertheless, lingonberry has so often popped up in my TNs for those older Colares and Carema wines that while it might not mean they taste exactly like lingonberries, there is definitely something that reminds me of munching those tart, crunchy red berries!

I mean, sure… molecules are real… but they are also, more often than not, very volatile and subject to a thousand different factors, both objective AND subjective.

Indeed! One person’s one thing is often another person’s completely different thing! Just like molecules, also TNs are so very objective and subjective! Unless somebody is saying something that is just completely wrong (like a heavily oaky taste in Dom Pérignon) there’s no need to be haunted by other people’s tasting notes!

[Tvrtko_C]

Nevertheless, lingonberry has so often popped up in my TNs for those older Colares and Carema wines that while it might not mean they taste exactly like lingonberries, there is definitely something that reminds me of munching those tart, crunchy red berries!

Sure, most of what you’re trying to explain is perfectly common sense and very hard for me to disagree with. Like it or not, though, the possibility is probably quite real that “lingonberry” gets thrown around a lot and quite casually which, in turn, sometimes leaves one with tasting notes that leave a great deal to be desired in terms of real specificity. What lingonberry? Minus? Majus? And then, you might laugh, but I actually know some people who have been know to claim that, once we have agreed that we are, after all, talking about some local varieties of what is commonly known as “lingonberry”, apparently kokemomo, airelle rouge, and partidgeberry, to name just some, can and, indeed, often do each display some very distinctive traits. Terroir in action, I guess. In other words, apparently, we can’t even just say lingonberry is lingonberry is lingonberry and leave it at that any more… The raspberry rankles… the lingonberry lingers… Sorry, I just can’t resist the word lingonberry, I find it totally hilarious for some reason

(No need to explain your approach for the umpteenth time in reply to this, I understand and honestly admire it, to say the least . Just having a bit of a laugh, certainly hope I’m not the only one . Thanks for the exchange, mate!)

[Otto_Forsberg]

Sure, most of what you’re trying to explain is perfectly common sense and very hard for me to disagree with. Like it or not, though, the possibility is probably quite real that “lingonberry” gets thrown around a lot and quite casually which, in turn, sometimes leaves one with tasting notes that leave a great deal to be desired in terms of real specificity. What lingonberry? Minus? Majus? And then, you might laugh, but I actually know some people who have been know to claim that, once we have agreed that we are, after all, talking about some local varieties of what is commonly known as “lingonberry”, apparently kokemomo, airelle rouge, and partidgeberry, to name just some, can and, indeed, often do each display some very distinctive traits. Terroir in action, I guess. In other words, apparently, we can’t even just say lingonberry is lingonberry is lingonberry and leave it at that any more… The raspberry rankles… the lingonberry lingers… Sorry, I just can’t resist the word lingonberry, I find it totally hilarious for some reason

(No need to explain your approach for the umpteenth time in reply to this, I understand and honestly admire it, to say the least . Just having a bit of a laugh, certainly hope I’m not the only one . Thanks for the exchange, mate!)

I won’t laugh, because I’m well aware of the differences within one species (or even subspecies) of a fruit - after all, one of my friends is not only a wine enthusiasts and a home brewer, but also a rowan geek, since he likes to use rowanberries in his brews! To me all rowanberries taste pretty much the same, but he can easily differentiate a dozen or so different subspecies growing in Finland alone, describe the differences in the fruit and how they behave in different soils! However, even when I know that there are even quite distinct differences between rowanberries, I’m still going to stick using just “rowanberry” instead of a more specific name. After all, my tasting notes are already quite lengthy and technical and I don’t think using the correct classical Latin name of the appropriate subspecies of fruit would make them any easier to read! And what kind of wine enthusiast would one be if they didn’t acknowledge how different fruits can get if grown in different terroirs or from different cultivars?

I didn’t know airelle rouge or kokemono would be different from the fruit commonly known here as “lingonberry” - to my understanding they are just the local names for the same fruit. Probably the biggest possibility for confusion here is that the Eurasian lingonberry (vitis-idaea) is known commonly known as lingonberry around here (and I don’t even know if we have a separate name for the North American subspecies), while the North American subspecies is known as lingonberry in American English and the Eurasian subspecies is known as cowberry, which, in turn, is a name nobody would use here - or at least I’ve never seen it used anywhere. I can understand why this can be fertile ground for confusion and misunderstanding.

Nevertheless, seeing how I am based in Europe (and have never, to my knowledge, tasted North American lingonberries), it’s safe to assume we’re talking about the Eurasian subspecies of lingonberries! (And I’m not going to start differentiating between the cultivars of different fruits - unless they are apples; apples are easy!).

And, finally, I have no idea about the Majus subspecies!

[Otto_Forsberg]

Lingonberry - the Spanish inquisition of the Nebbiolo threads.

[Noah_C]

To me, wine produced from Baga can most closely mimic Nebbiolo. I’ve had Baga from Dao (Quinta da Boavista, Terras de Tavares) that was a dead ringer for aged Barolo. Both Sangiovese and Xinomavro can taste quite Nebbiolo-like as well, depending on the producer. I’ve never found Aglianico particularly Nebbiolo-ish, but I don’t have experience with aged examples.

[Mikael_OB]

As I mentioned, no experience with aged Carema wines. My reference points goes to 90s, 00s and 10s for barolo and barbaresco wines. Had a couple of Barolo wines from the 60s but as those bottles were not what they should have been, I leave that out of the equation.

Yes, well, Barolo and Barbaresco are VERY different thing altogether from Carema - especially those older wines when the region was even cooler than how it is now.

With enough time all wines will finally taste more or less the same. > >

Well, that’s true. However, I’m not talking about wines that have gotten so oxidative (or oxidized) that they taste like, well, old wine. Even if an old Bordeaux and old Barolo would’ve lost all their primary fruit notes, they’d still be easily distinguishable from each other. However, I’d argue that old Colares and old Carema / Alto Piemonte Nebbiolo share so many similar qualities that they’d be quite easily confused for each other, especially if not tasting them immediately side-by-side. Not that much aromatically, because Nebbiolo is its own thing altogether, but for almost everything else. However, you’d not confuse Colares for an old Barolo / Barbaresco, because they are much further apart from each other.

The OP was looking for alternatives for Nebbiolo and if I recall the QPR was kind of the focus point (might mix up the postings?).

The QPR thread was a different thing.

For me personally tasting them both (Carema and Ramisco/Colares) reasonably close time/age span and releases I don’t see much similarities. In 90 years and 50 years wines from these two regions/grapes will taste more or less the same… I take your word for it but I do think at that age/phase more regions/grapes start having similar taste profile and not sure it’s as much about the grape specific taste anymore though can be highly enjoyable and a remarkable experience nonetheless.

Well, I could also say a Colares from the 1960’s and Carema or Gattinara from the 1960’s. However, those two 1960’s Colares wines that I’ve had had somewhat odd and sappy, green note to them which I’d never find in a Nebbiolo, which is why I didn’t use them in my original comparison. Nevertheless, the stylistic differences are still remarkably minuscule between these styles. And like I said before, I don’t mean these wines need to be so old they all feel and taste like each other (and I don’t know how long one should age Colares before it reaches that phase, since even the 1930’s Colares wines I’ve had have been remarkably youthful for their age!).

With age (also while still some primary there) it can start to get more difficult to tell wines apart so I can see how similarities start to show. This is also why I mentioned that when younger I could not find much similarities (only had a couple of Carema), youngest Colares was from the 90s a couple of years back and that was something completely different to me (than a Carema from 10s). About a 20 year gap between the vintages or so…

Agree that Colares can seem to be indestructible almost with that elegance showing with age. Wish I had the chance to try one from the 30s, must have been a treat! Had a 1968 (or was it a 69?), was spectacular - a sensory chock in the best way possible. Couldn’t take any notes, had to be in that moment, the taste profile just kept evolving with every sip and spectacular length on the finish. That is a similar sensation to a great Nebbiolo bottle.

[T_Kaplan]

Thank you so much for the input, all! I’ve been sleeping on Xinomavro for a while now, think it’s time to finally order some. Gaglioppo, too. Would get my hands on some Freisa if I could easily find it, but that might have to wait.

[Tvrtko_C]

Agree that Colares can seem to be indestructible almost with that elegance showing with age. Wish I had the chance to try one from the 30s, must have been a treat!

I haven’t been following that closely recently, but some years ago there was still a surprising amount of very old (meaning pre-WW2) Colares bottlings floating about on the Portuguese market if you knew where to look. Are you familiar with Garrafeira Nacional? If not, it’s as good a place as any to have a look, I suppose. If you can’t find what you’re looking for, getting in touch with them directly is also an option. They were able to dig up some rare stuff for me that wasn’t normally available. Great service.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I haven’t been following that closely recently, but some years ago there was still a surprising amount of very old (meaning pre-WW2) Colares bottlings floating about on the Portuguese market if you knew where to look. Are you familiar with Garrafeira Nacional? If not, it’s as good a place as any to have a look, I suppose. If you can’t find what you’re looking for, getting in touch with them directly is also an option. They were able to dig up some rare stuff for me that wasn’t normally available. Great service.

Unsurprisingly, this was the source for my older bottles of Colares as well. And I didn’t need to even ask anything special, since there was a good handful of pre-WW2 wines available in their website and probably total of two dozen different Colares wines from vintages between 1931 and 1990. The prices were also noticeably lower back then.

[Tvrtko_C]

Unsurprisingly, this was the source for my older bottles of Colares as well. And I didn’t need to even ask anything special, since there was a good handful of pre-WW2 wines available in their website and probably total of two dozen different Colares wines from vintages between 1931 and 1990. The prices were also noticeably lower back then.

Yes, as I mentioned, old Colares was pretty much floating about… but what I wanted was a lot quirkier than old Colares, hence the need to dig, and dig they did

Great shop.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Unsurprisingly, this was the source for my older bottles of Colares as well. And I didn’t need to even ask anything special, since there was a good handful of pre-WW2 wines available in their website and probably total of two dozen different Colares wines from vintages between 1931 and 1990. The prices were also noticeably lower back then.

Yes, as I mentioned, old Colares was pretty much floating about… but what I wanted was a lot quirkier than old Colares, hence the need to dig, and dig they did

Great shop.

Oh, righty! Didn’t realize it was something else than Colares!

What was it then? Old Carcavelos? Rare-variety Madeira?

And indeed, a great shop.

[Oliver_McCrum]

Gaglioppo can be a dead ringer for Nebbiolo, color and all. I suspect we will see more and more quality from Calabria in the coming years.