Varietal Reflections Of Terroir

WINE TALK
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I’ve heard it stated any number of times by various “authorities”,that PinotNoir, more than any other variety, reflects its terroir in which it’s grown. I’ve heard the exact same thing stated about Nebbiolo. And about Riesling.
When I hear such statements, it always raises my BS antenna to high alert. I’ve asked the question “Why does PinotNoir (or Nebbiolo, or Riesling) reflect it’s terroir better than any other variety…what is unique about Pinot that allows it to do this”???
Thus far, I’ve never received an answer that even remotely made sense. Usually, it’s a bunch of inane yammering with circular logic that pussy-foots around the the question. The questionee always agrees that (PinotNoir/Nebbiolo/Riesling) does, indeed, reflect its terroir more than any other grape variety. But it usually boils down to a bunch of hand-waving, nebulous generalities, inane platitudes, and little more than “because it’s so”.
So…what do Nebbiolo and PinotNoir have in common??? Alledgedly, they are both varieties that are genetically unstable…that mutate at the drop of a hat. So, over a year ago, I speculated that PinotNoir (or Nebbiolo) reflect their terroir more than any other grape because they are genetically unstable. And, of course, Riesling doesn’t fit that paradigm. When I made that suggestion out on the InterNet…total drop-dead silence.
So…at the Around The World With PinotNoir seminar at the TaosWinterWineFestival Friday, I asked that same question. I emphasized that “I don’t know” was a perfectly legitimate answer, though highly unlikely. The three panelists blathered about it a bit, but seemed to be totally clueless on the subject. JoshJensen, sitting in the audience (off-duty), made some generalized comments and suggested it was because Pinot is a thin-skinned variety. Alas, so is Zinfandel, and it’s never suggested that Zin reflect terroir particularly well.
And then…and then…JasmineHirsch was sitting in the audience and opined it was because PinotNoir is genetically weak. Bingo!!! But then she further added that their vnyd people assert that PinotNoir is not genetically unstable, so maybe that’s not it, after all. Curses…foiled again.
So…once again I pose the question: Why is PinotNoir (or Nebbiolo or Riesling) more sensitive to its terroir than any other grape variety???. The whole future of WesternCivilization and the existence of the HiggsB hangs in the balance of a correct answer to this question.
I’ll pose the same question to GiorgioRivetti when he’s here next week.
Tom

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I think it’s because all three of them Can be very light wines with a lot of flavor. Because they are light you can taste a lot of other factors, including minerality. Together, a Pinot from burgundy can have a lot of flavor and complexity and you can taste it while a syrah or Cabernet may be too heavy to taste all the factors until its had many years to age. Jet my opinion.

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OTOH, there is a big difference between a good Côte-Rôtie and a heavy weight Aussie Shiraz.

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Strikes me as a strange question, sort of like asking, “Why is it that tall people are taller than short people?”

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Hmmmmm…doesn’t seem so strange to me, Keith. Tall people are taller than short people because of their genetic background.
Or why is Cabernet darker than Gamay. Because of the higher skin to juice ratio.
Tom

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Would have to say that Zin is indeed a very good example of a terroir varietal (sic).
It takes considerable experience to appreciate this, but I feel I’m very slowly getting there. Zinfandel vineyards definitely have their own personalities. And regional differences seem huge even within Sonoma. Anyone who has tried DCV vs RRV vs SV would surely see that these regions are expressed quite differently in this modest grape.

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Take this as the opinion of a heretical philistine - but I believe Pinot Noir & Riesling have the reputation simply because the regions from which they originate choose to name the wines by vineyard. This allows the study of these wines by terroir in a way that’s not possible in other regions producing wine from other noble grapes.

I don’t know enough about Nebbiolo to know if that applies there.

This answer I suppose raises another question - why do the regions from which Pinot & Riesling originate name wines by vineyard? It’s possibly just a historical fluke e.g. the people in charge simply wanted it that way. OTOH perhaps single vineyard wines may have come to exist there more so than elsewhere because of the grapes’ ability to reflect the vineyard better than those grown in Pauillac or Hermitage.

Personally I don’t believe these grapes have an ability to express terroir better than others. I look at California as the great test kitchen, where multiple varieties are planted across multiple terroirs, and there’s a lot of single vineyard designation. Despite all the talk about overripeness masking terroir, a study across Sonoma of Syrah, or as Peter says, even the lowly Zinfandel, will reveal a wide array of site reflection.

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IMO and FWIW, Zinfandel is second only to Pinot in its ability to express site. Old, mixed black field blends (take Geyserville, for example) often exceed Pinot in site expression due to the unique varietal makeup of the field blend and the age of the vines.

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The partial answer, as best I know it, is the influence of monks in the middle ages.


As a corollary to the original question, isn’t it simply possible that certain grape varieties show certain terroirs better? As in, Pinot may show terroir at its fullest in some of the terroirs in Burgundy, whereas Pinot would be be more hard pressed to show terroir in, say, Cote Rotie?

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Tom,

I can only speak to Pinot Noir here. Put simply, the grape has an incredible amount of “bandwidth” - it tastes completely different wherever it is grown/vinified. Even though grapes like Cabernet Sauvignon exhibit differences in terroir, CS still gives a stronger stamp of its varietal characteristics than it does of the place in which it is grown.

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Or because of differences in nourishment. But your point is exactly right. Tallness isn’t a metaphysical given. It has causes. If certain grapes better reflect terroir, that relationship too should have causes.

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I am far more likely to mistaken CS for another variety than I am PN. Therefore I think PN’s varietal characteristics must stand out, to some extent.

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Tom–It seems to me that part of the problem is that you are trying to arrive at a scientific answer to a non-scientific question. “Expressing terroir” is not, in and of itself, a scientific concept. Instead, it’s really at best a subjective concept based on personal views on what constitutes (or doesn’t constitute) terroir.

Here are just two alternative ways of asking the question you’ve posed:

  1. Which varietal shows the greatest differentiation in expression between warm sites and cool sites?

  2. Which varietal shows the greatest differentiation in expression given relatively small changes in site temperature?

Question #1 is like the “bandwidth” comment above. Question #2 doesn’t deal with “bandwidth,” but rather with sensitivity to relatively small changes in temperature. It is important to note that as expressed, Question #1 doesn’t impose any judgments on whether either end of the bandwidth spectrum results in an undesirable wine.

Since “terroir” presumably refers to a potentially large set of site variables–warmth, sun exposure, rainfall, drainage, etc.–you could break it down into each variable and then ask the relevant questions.

Bruce

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“When it’s done right, Pinot Noir is the most transparent of all grapes”.

“Pinot Noir is reflective of everything that happens to it”.

(A.Meadows).

So your answers are: 1) Enough people must being doing Pinot Noir right and 2) There are lots of really tiny mirrors and video recorders/players interacting at Pinot’s molecular level.

That settles it, no? [wink.gif]

RT

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Harumph…just like you lawyers, Bruce…trying to bring logic and common sense to bear on a nebulous issue!!! [snort.gif]

I originally started posing my question to winemakers and wine “authorities” several yrs ago…trying to understand the claim that PinotNoir (or Nebbiolo or Riesling) reflect the terroir more than
any other grape variety. When I hear that claim made, I always wonder if it’s really true. You ask a Pinot producer (or AlanMeadows)…yup…Pinot certainly does reflect terroir more than any other grape.
You ask a Piedmonte producer…yup…Nebbiolo sure does reflect the Piedmontese terroir more than any other variety. The one German producer I addressed that question to had never heard
that claim of Riesling before and questioned its accuracy.
I think your alternative questions are certainly legitimate ones to ask, Bruce. But they are addressed to the more general audience of wine geeks. If you ask AlanMeadows or JoshJensen or
WaltFlowers or GiorgioRivetti those questions…I suspect we know what the answer will be. If you ask AdamLee or DarrellCorti…it probably won’t be so clear-cut. If you ask me…I’ll admit
that I’m totally clueless as to the answer…something you won’t hear from a winemaker or a “wine authority”.
Tom

16

If you try wines from various adjacent vineyards up and down the Mosel, and likewise up and down the Cote, you will likely agree with the terrior expressive nature of these grapes. Even wines from different producers and different vintages will have an identifiable underlying flavor thread when the wines are from the same vineyard.

Maybe it’s partly the style in which the wines are made. Pinots are typically rather low in tannin for instance, and not highly extracted or highly oaked. Chardonnay, another white like Riesling, is also pretty good at showing terroir in the final wine, as the various vineyards in the Cote de Beaune demonstrate.

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To me, from a flavor profile perspective (as in not density, extract, acid, etc.) a left-bank Bordeaux is more different from a California Cabernet than a Pinot from Burgundy is from a NZ, Oregon or Sonoma Coast Pinot. In fact, the most consistent of all grapes in expressing varietal character is, in my opinion,…Pinot.

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Chris,
I agree that terroir differences can be found in other wines. I’m not as familiar with Cabs, but I know Rutherford Bench versus Stag’s Leap! :slight_smile: But with Burgs, a Vosne is such a different animal than a Chambolle, and a Gevrey and a Beaune are worlds apart. Likewise with German Riesling - a Wehlener Mosel wine is not going to be confused with a Saar wine, and Rhine wines are something totally different again. Likewise the Nahe.

And with these two genres, the altitude of the vineyard is sometimes interestingly apparent. Try a Pommard Vignots from Leroy, for instance, or for that matter, any good Rugiens - wines from higher on the slope. In the Rheingau, it’s Erbacher Marcobrunn that is right down on the river, and so earthy-rich in contrast to the more normally situated vineyards.

Interesting stuff, with every grape, and in every different location!

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Tom - it’s because those grapes reflect the soul of the vineyard; they transport you to a different place no matter where you taste them. Through them, the earth speaks.

[bow.gif]

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Paul, good points! It is all a complex matter indeed.
Chris