Use of wood, late harvest, and other modern (vs. traditional) winemaking techniques in the S. Rhone

I thought I would get the Board discussing their thoughts on modern wine-making trends in the Southern Rhone. More and more I tend to find the wines of Chateauneuf and elsewhere in the Southern Rhone manipulated to a point where the wine is negatively effected for my palate. I had a 2000 Cristia Reneaissance CDP over two nights, which is what made me think of this. The first night, the wood was painful. The second night, it had integrated a bit, but left something that makes me think of anywhere but the SOuthern Rhone. For me, new wood and Grenache are an abomination more often than a blessing.

What do you think, and what producers modern and what traditional producers do you like and not like? I recognize a spectrum here, as some more modern producers are more successful in keeping some of the Provencial character than others.

Discuss…

Good thread, Drew.

As someone new to French wines, I’ve heard this discussed, particularly with Chateauneuf du Pape, where the style now is vastly different from what it used to be. Recently I had a spectacular CdP from 1966 with Justin Wells, and it STILL had life left in it. In the current winemaking style for CdP, I understand 5 years would be a feat.

Same thing along the lines of Todd, I had a 1956 CDP clos st Jean that my friend brought and it was outstanding. I’ve enjoyed CDP young (03/04/05) but i don’t have the “understanding” of CDP to really know what the “modern” techniques are compared to the “traditional” techniques. I do notice that the newer CDP’s have a fruit juiciness to them that I assume you are referring to in the use of Grenache? I think one grand example of this is the Vieux Telegraphe. I enjoy it, but it doesn’t seem to have that rustic nature that I always thought CDP had.

Interesting as I lurve Cristia but from 2003 onward. The Reneaissance has a ton of Mouverdre in it & demands long aging. Isn’t the 2000 the first vintage made by the two children?

Here is a somewhat interesting article from Decanter from a few years back on this topic.

http://www.decanter.com/archive/61871.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some producers use carbonic maceration to get that fruitiness.
I’d like to find out which ones specifically are using full or partial CM

Drew, there are countless producers that have not changed their style…Vieux Donjon, Clos des Papes, Beaucastel, Charvin, Pegau, Usseglio just to name a few. Some like Cuvee de Vatican are using less oak on their non-traditional bottling and I think making better wines. Others unfortunately for my palate are going the other way. Clos St Jean and Font de Michelle are two examples.

Welcome aboard, Paul! Those you mention favorably are many of my go-to producers, though Pegau and C des P have been dropped due to pricing. So, what other producers are more traditional/less oak oriented?

Who is on your Do Not Buy List?

Others I buy regularly are Monpertuis, Boursan, Bosquet des Papes, Vielle Julienne, Grand Veneur, Rayas ( but expensive). Sometimes buys are Vieux Telegraphe, Janasse, Les Cailloux. Only ones I can think of that I tasted recently that I would avoid because I don’t like the modern style are Barroche (sp?) and Clos St Jean. Font de Michelle are making some changes that are going from traditional to more modern. I’m sure I’m forgetting a bunch on both ends.

In my opinion Clos des Papes has been and continues to trend to riper and riper fruit, to the point that I think it is a largely unenjoyable wine, very hot and bitter and raisined…

Pegau perhaps is trending riper as well but perhaps not as grossly so as Clos des Papes. I haven’t liked any of the 03-07 Clos des Papes. For Pegau 03 is a good 03 but a bit big for me, 04 and 05 are dynamite, 06 is a bit big, kind of like 03, and I haven’t had 07.

'07 Pegau in barrel in barrel is pretty awesome and Capo is out of this world but not worth the price to me. I thought '06 was pretty balanced and I think an early drinker in the mode of '99.

I haven’t had recent Clos des Papes but 2004 was fine coming on the heels of the verrrrrry ripe and alcoholic 2003.