Upright or on its side: A Theory

[Nathan_Smyth]

Good points here. It’s akin to the myth that many still adhere to is that wine needs to ‘breath’.
No it doesn’t. P&P.

/FACETIOUSNESS ???

[William_Anzalone]

I assume this theory of upright bottles not adversely affecting a cork or the wine would also hold true for angled display shelves/racks. I’ve always been concerned about displaying a bottle that requires significant aging because of the lack of moisture on the cork but when I researched this topic I found minimal to no good information.

If anyone feels that it is not a good idea to display a bottle that requires significant aging on a display shelf please let me know. It’s something I’ve contemplated for several years and ultimately I chose to only display bottles that don’t require aging but I’d rather display a 1st growth Bordeaux or a great Napa Cab that requires cellaring that I won’t be touching for many years.

My wine is stored in a Le Cache Cabinet so all wine is on its side except for the 4 display cradles I have in the unit. I may chose to change my display bottles based on this thread.

Thanks for raising the question and hope I didnt deviate to far from it.

[Ian_S]

Yeah, this makes zero sense to me.

I hope your wife packs the trunk when you go on vacation.

[K_F_o_l_e_y]

Keeping corks moist was a secondary and later consideration that “made sense” to some. It is not supported by any empirical evidence or based on any significant theoretical advantage when one considers that the inner end of the cork is exposed to close to 100% humidity. The external aspect of the cork might become more brittle and difficult to remove, possibly increasing the risk of seal failure in a low humidity environment, but that is true whether the bottle is stored horizontally or vertically.

This paper would seem to disagree:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2621.2002.tb10292.x

You don’t store them on the side to keep the cork moist. Cork is waterproof. It’s not a sponge. And if it isn’t waterproof then your cork is compromised.

This paper would seem to disagree (free download):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/256423937_Permeability_of_Cork_for_Water_and_Ethanol

[Scott_G_r_u_n_e_r]

5 and 1. More efficient storage and then mimicry plus other made up shit about wet corks, etc. occam’s razor and all

[Yao_C]

For the chemists out there: is it likely that avoiding wine/cork contact reduces tca contamination? I read somewhere that we can sense just a few ppb of TCA, so my intuition is that if a cork is bad the bottle has had it

I’ve loved reading about that in cooking. For example, it turns out that most of the cooking truisms about steak are incorrect, and a lot of people have wasted a lot of effort fretting about doing and avoiding certain things when it really was never necessary.

Very true. I learned years ago that it’s OK to cut into a steak on the grill to see how it’s doing.

Touch, my man. You should be able to tell how your steak is by a simple touch. For medium rare: You want it like the feel of your thumb at its base when pressed together against the forefinger!

I guess you could but there’s always probe thermometers

[David_Glasser]

Keeping corks moist was a secondary and later consideration that “made sense” to some. It is not supported by any empirical evidence or based on any significant theoretical advantage when one considers that the inner end of the cork is exposed to close to 100% humidity. The external aspect of the cork might become more brittle and difficult to remove, possibly increasing the risk of seal failure in a low humidity environment, but that is true whether the bottle is stored horizontally or vertically.

This paper would seem to disagree:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2621.2002.tb10292.x

You don’t store them on the side to keep the cork moist. Cork is waterproof. It’s not a sponge. And if it isn’t waterproof then your cork is compromised.

This paper would seem to disagree (free download):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/256423937_Permeability_of_Cork_for_Water_and_Ethanol

The first paper is highly suspect given the conclusion that screw-capped bottles oxidized faster than corked bottles. That runs counter to the mainstream literature. I have to wonder about the details of their methods.

Hard to make anything of the second paper from the abstract alone. Reading the full study, they looked at non-compressed corks, which isn’t the state they’re in when placed in a bottle. Nor does the paper lend perspective as to whether the transmission rates through the cork are meaningful with respect to wine aging.

[Matthew_King]

For the chemists out there: is it likely that avoiding wine/cork contact reduces tca contamination? I read somewhere that we can sense just a few ppb of TCA, so my intuition is that if a cork is bad the bottle has had it

Very true. I learned years ago that it’s OK to cut into a steak on the grill to see how it’s doing.

Touch, my man. You should be able to tell how your steak is by a simple touch. For medium rare: You want it like the feel of your thumb at its base when pressed together against the forefinger!

I guess you could but there’s always probe thermometers

Caveman don’t need no stinkin’ thermometer!

[Alan_Rath]

I’ve loved reading about that in cooking. For example, it turns out that most of the cooking truisms about steak are incorrect, and a lot of people have wasted a lot of effort fretting about doing and avoiding certain things when it really was never necessary.

Very true. I learned years ago that it’s OK to cut into a steak on the grill to see how it’s doing.

Touch, my man. You should be able to tell how your steak is by a simple touch. For medium rare: You want it like the feel of your thumb at its base when pressed together against the forefinger!

Yep, I do that, but still like visual confirmation, especially on a thicker cut.

[GregT]

Touch, my man. You should be able to tell how your steak is by a simple touch. For medium rare: You want it like the feel of your thumb at its base when pressed together against the forefinger!

The problem with that is the same as the idea of different glasses “delivering” wine to a particular place on your tongue. It makes no sense. My hand is twice the size of my wife’s. Which hand should we use? I can promise you they’re quite different.

by David Glasser » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:13 am

K_F_o_l_e_y wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:08 am

David Glasser wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:36 am
Keeping corks moist was a secondary and later consideration that “made sense” to some. It is not supported by any empirical evidence or based on any significant theoretical advantage when one considers that the inner end of the cork is exposed to close to 100% humidity. The external aspect of the cork might become more brittle and difficult to remove, possibly increasing the risk of seal failure in a low humidity environment, but that is true whether the bottle is stored horizontally or vertically.

This paper would seem to disagree:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs … .tb10292.x

GregT wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:30 am
You don’t store them on the side to keep the cork moist. Cork is waterproof. It’s not a sponge. And if it isn’t waterproof then your cork is compromised.

This paper would seem to disagree (free download):

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … nd_Ethanol

The first paper is highly suspect given the conclusion that screw-capped bottles oxidized faster than corked bottles. That runs counter to the mainstream literature. I have to wonder about the details of their methods.

Hard to make anything of the second paper from the abstract alone. Reading the full study, they looked at non-compressed corks, which isn’t the state they’re in when placed in a bottle. Nor does the paper lend perspective as to whether the transmission rates through the cork are meaningful with respect to wine aging.

And from the paper:

Testing more samples has a limited interest, because cork permeability shows a high (natural) variability. Even the permeability for water and ethanol vapors “normalized to He ”showed considerable variability. Therefore, the results obtained with different permeant species should be compared within the same sample rather among samples

The main problem with cork is captured right there. Each cork is unique. I would like to know that all the closures on my wine bottles will behave the same, rather than know that each bottle will experience a unique life.

[larry_schaffer]

I’d actually like to see some investigation into whether storing on the side might be detrimental.

https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2018/06/storing-wine-on-its-side-is-bullsht-says-scientist/

Yep, that was the article I was going to mention - and why no one has commented on your post as of yet is a bit ludicrous.

This was research done by one of the leading cork companies - and their conclusion is that it is not necessary to store them on their side due to the high moisture level in these bottles.

And they point out that due to this moisture level, transference of TCA will still occur, so this is no way to reduce that risk.

Anecdotally, I have stored a number of bottles standing up for the last 10 years or so and the wines have all been sound - the corks, unfortunately, need to be taken out with ah-so’s as they are more ‘brittle’ than they probably should be.

Cheers.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Anecdotally, I have stored a number of bottles standing up for the last 10 years or so and the wines have all been sound - the corks, unfortunately, need to be taken out with ah-so’s as they are more ‘brittle’ than they probably should be.

That anecdote suggests to me that upright storage for lengthy periods increases risk. If you are finding corks brittle after 10 years, will that even be worse in 20, 25+ years, the ideal period for fine Bordeaux?

[Neal.Mollen]

Yeah, this makes zero sense to me.

I hope your wife packs the trunk when you go on vacation.

You pack your sweaters standing up? Post a pic of your suitcase.

[Ian_S]

Yeah, this makes zero sense to me.

I hope your wife packs the trunk when you go on vacation.

You pack your sweaters standing up? Post a pic of your suitcase.

If my sweaters were in a rigid container sealed with a cork, and space demanded that I pack these containers upright, then yes.

[Neal.Mollen]

I hope your wife packs the trunk when you go on vacation.

You pack your sweaters standing up? Post a pic of your suitcase.

If my sweaters were in a rigid container sealed with a cork, and space demanded that I pack these containers upright, then yes.

The second clause assumes away the question, doesn’t it? The consensus(-1) here seems to be that laying bottles down is vastly more space efficient.

[larry_schaffer]

Anecdotally, I have stored a number of bottles standing up for the last 10 years or so and the wines have all been sound - the corks, unfortunately, need to be taken out with ah-so’s as they are more ‘brittle’ than they probably should be.

That anecdote suggests to me that upright storage for lengthy periods increases risk. If you are finding corks brittle after 10 years, will that even be worse in 20, 25+ years, the ideal period for fine Bordeaux?

Robert,

Good point - but I guess I should clarify. These corks have no issue when removed with an ah so but the bottoms of the longer corks tend to ‘separate’ when using a traditional corkscrew. In many cases, we’re talking 20-25 year old wines already - and even in perfect conditions, these would need to be removed with a durand or ah so anyway, right?

Cheers.

[Ian_S]

You pack your sweaters standing up? Post a pic of your suitcase.

If my sweaters were in a rigid container sealed with a cork, and space demanded that I pack these containers upright, then yes.

The second clause assumes away the question, doesn’t it? The consensus(-1) here seems to be that laying bottles down is vastly more space efficient.

No, it doesn’t, and no, I don’t see a majority consensus except for me. Please go on thinking you’re correct and superior though.

Solicitors.

[Neal.Mollen]

If my sweaters were in a rigid container sealed with a cork, and space demanded that I pack these containers upright, then yes.

The second clause assumes away the question, doesn’t it? The consensus(-1) here seems to be that laying bottles down is vastly more space efficient.

No, it doesn’t, and no, I don’t see a majority consensus except for me. Please go on thinking you’re correct and superior though.

Solicitors.

More barrister than solicitor, actually, but ok. I see that at a minimum, Jonathan, David, Greg, and Scott agree with me, but with my diminished reading skills I have been unable to find a comparable groundswell for the efficiency of vertical storage.

Anyway, I now take it that the OP was asking theoretically whether there are reasons beyond efficiency for horizontal storage, which is a very different question on which I have no opinion

[James_Billy]

The second clause assumes away the question, doesn’t it? The consensus(-1) here seems to be that laying bottles down is vastly more space efficient.

No, it doesn’t, and no, I don’t see a majority consensus except for me. Please go on thinking you’re correct and superior though.

Solicitors.

More barrister than solicitor, actually, but ok. I see that at a minimum, Jonathan, David, Greg, and Scott agree with me, but with my diminished reading skills I have been unable to find a comparable groundswell for the efficiency of vertical storage.

Anyway, I now take it that the OP was asking theoretically whether there are reasons beyond efficiency for horizontal storage, which is a very different question on which I have no opinion

No, nothing to do with storage efficiency.

From OP:

“whether there’s any data that supports supine bottles being any better than upright bottles over time.”

[K_F_o_l_e_y]

I’d actually like to see some investigation into whether storing on the side might be detrimental.

https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2018/06/storing-wine-on-its-side-is-bullsht-says-scientist/

Yep, that was the article I was going to mention - and why no one has commented on your post as of yet is a bit ludicrous.

Actually, I was in effect commenting on the assertion in the article, considering a quick google search easily found several papers that disagreed with the single paper cited in the article. I only bothered to post a link to one. But it’s pointless to post and discuss them all, since the devil is in the details, and no matter the scientific question, you’ll be able to find convincing research on both sides of most arguments. Not to mention, this is a wine board, and as we all know from experience, people will believe whatever they want to believe about wine, no matter what the science, or anybody else, says!

As a practicing scientist, my policy is never to discuss religion, politics or wine in mixed company. It will only get me in trouble (particularly after the second bottle).