That was just an example to keep it less dogmatic (and no, it’s not a necessity of course!). Large botti full on traditional winemaking with dull and uninteresting juice due to poor farming - Which do you prefer? We call that game plague or cholera (in Sweden), though in this extreme case it is less of a painful choice, I’s say.
I hear you though Mark, and while I find more joy in the traditional direction I wouldn’t be surprised to if I come across a terrific barrique version (without the chocolate vanilla mess). On the otherhand, Accomasso had an interesting observation (from IDTT with Levi) which if I recall correctly was that older barriques can be problematic with nebbiolo.
Did they explain what might be problematic there? Basically the only think I can think of is how the oxidative power of a wood vessel is inversely correlated to its volume - meaning that aging in smaller barrels like barriques the wines might turn too oxidative.
I’ve understood some smaller producers use barriques just because their production is so small so if they want to make single-vineyard bottlings, they might have enough fruit for just one or two barriques. I really see no problem using barriques, demi-muids or tonneaux in situations like these, as long as the barrels are used and neutral enough so the wines taste like Nebbiolo and not toasty mocha oak.
I also strongly prefer limited wood. Don’t want splinters in my tongue. I also feel that there is a correlation with producers using small barriques and producers whose wine don’t age as well.
Limited wood imprint to me is synonymous to no toasty mocha oak.
Accomasso was very pragmatic and not judgmental in any way, the conclusion from the discussion in the interview was that his view was that traditional wines age better, and if one prefers to drink a barolo earlier than a modern rendition is better.
He mentioned that he’s understanding is that French oak (barrique in this case) has the character of leaving a larger wood imprint the older the barrel gets. He didn’t know/went in to any specifics.
Very speculative but what comes to my mind is that he has the wood tannins in mind, that in some wines can become more pronounced, and personally I find that a negative textural compared to wines with texture and tannins coming mainly from the grape/vines.
The interview is also interesting in general for barolo/barbaresco, as well as for those with thoughts about traditional versus modern. A lot of other interview with important winemakers/writers is nicely put together in the episode: #IDTT Wine 482: Lorenzo Accomasso and Barolo from the War Until Now.
That doesn’t make any sense. If that were true, all the wines aged in old, neutral barriques and similarly sized French oak barrels would be oaky as hell. And that definitely isn’t the case.
I wonder if he meant that a used French oak barrique can leave a larger wood imprint than a Slavonian oak botti of similar age? That would make sense.
I do agree with your point on wood tannins - I, too, find them often quite unpleasant when there is enough of them to become noticeable. However, that shouldn’t be a problem with older barrels as most wood tannins are leached by the first one or two wines, along with most of the wood flavors.
It’s of course all in the context of barrique versus botti (Slavonian), and with his experience from the region.
As mentioned, speculative and what I could imagine, so might as well be something else like you suggest (oxidative impact). On the otherhand with younger barrels he also suggested that modern wines are relatively better for early consumption. Hence I thought it must be something else on his mind than fast development when it came to the issues he saw with older barriques and the increased wood imprint (and imprint for me would suggest something different than oxidation related). Would be interesting to learn more about what Accomasso’s thoughts about it though!
Worth checking:
Lodali - 18 day maceration and 26HL Slavonian oak for 18 months for their current Barolo Bricco Ambrogio
Rivetti Massimo - 30 day maceration and 25HL Slavonian oak for 24 months for the Barolo
Cautiously, though not cautiously enough, and not directed at Pat, I am going to interject that Traditional vs Modern is oversimplified. It is not a spectrum; there is not just a left and a right, but quite a few more dimensions. It is a great tool, and finding whether you like barrique aged or 50hl oak aged is really useful. BUT there is a bit more to a wine than the oak, the maceration time, and even rotofermenters.
When a customer asked for a recommendation on something we carry that is similar to the traditional 2018 PdB, I offered him the modern leaning 2016 Pelissero Nubiola and a few traditional options in a mixed case. He almost didn’t take the Pelissero, because it was modern, but I told him I thought it was the best match. After trying it, he then came back for a whole case. (note: the wine was for short term consumption) Besides vintage, which was a big part of the reason in this case, and when you plan to drink it, it is obviously also site specific, along with a handful of other important variables.
I think we should all use the guide, but not get too caught up in it. Wineries are also changing so frequently. Almost everyone modern is more traditional today than they were 20 years ago. Some are worth revisiting.
Thanks for the updates on producers. Oh, I agree that it is much more multidimensional than simply traditional or not. I developed this list as a starting point for those who wish to delve into nebbiolo.
An update on this. I spoke with Francesca Vaira today about this and there is one a significant difference in elevage.
They ferment all their GD Vajra Barolos in stainless steel and then move them to botti.
But, for the Baudanas, they ferment in the traditional wood before moving to botti. They feel the Serralunga based Baudana and Ceretta crus take better to the wood at ferment than their higher elevation and lighter soil Barolo and Novello crus.
So, I think we can move Baudana to Traditional, while keeping Vajra in Lean Traditional.
I’m not sure I follow the distinction you’re making here. I thought botti (i.e. large Slovenian casks) were the “traditional wood”? Or were you trying to say they ferment in botti and then transfer to barrique for aging?
Wine gets fermented in big tanks that can be made of wood or stainless steel or other materials and are usually, but not always, open topped, not sealed like a barrel is. That’s how they do punchdowns or pumpovers. Or the soaks and all that. Then they rack before putting it into where it will age. At least this is my understanding.
Botti are mainly used for aging only. They do make them out of other wood than Slavonian oak as well, but I’d say Slavonian oak is by far the most common material and definitely what most people would immediately associate with “traditional wood”. However, a botti made from chestnut - although an option much less common - would be another example of “traditional wood” vessel.
OK, got it. So “traditional wood” just meant a neutral open top fermentation vessel made of wood, whereas the botti are sealed for aging. This is opposed to fermenting in stainless or concrete or something else. I get it.
For the GD Vajra branded wine** they ferment in stainless steel which is considered a modernist technique. But is not as modernist, Francesca hastened to add, as the rotofermenters some modernists use which she likened to a stainless steel washing machine.
In my mind, those act like never ending punch downs.
** = I think the Claré JC may be an exception because it follows the 17th Century process and they didn’t have stainless steel. I should have asked but just realized it as I wrote this. So if someone can ask them soon that would be great.
How would folks classify producers who use Stockinger barrels (like Conterno and Oddero)?
Barrels are still quite large, but they are newer and are made of Austrian and German oak instead of Slavonian.
In terms of flavor, you are not getting oak, but technically this isn’t “traditionalist” wine making since Stockinger is relatively new to the scene in the Piemonte.
But, it would seem very weird to classify producers as leaning modern just because they are buying new barrels but are actively doing so in a way to minimize new oak flavors.
I’ve never seen Oddero described as anything other than traditionalist. With Conterno you should specify which producer you mean, since there’s a good handful of Conternos making wine in Piedmont.
And I don’t get how Stockinger bottis would be newer than Slavonian bottis. If you have a 20 yo Stockinger botti, it’s older than a recently purchased botti made from Slavonian oak, period.
In my view, using an old botti is a key defining characteristic of a traditionalist producer, no matter from which wood the botti is made of. Some producers use even bottis made of French oak and even if the wood influence might show for the few first years, it never is as pronounced as that from a barrique, and it disappears with subsequent use.
It might be a different story if some producers renewed their bottis every year, but I don’t know if there is any producers engaging in that kind of madness, seeing how expensive bottis can be and how moving them around in a cramped cellar can be an arduous task. I’ve understood most producers prefer to use their bottis for as long as possible, just to minimize both the cost and the hassle.
I think the question I was really asking is how are we defining “tradition” in this thread. Stockinger was not traditionally used in the Piemonte until relatively recently and it uses a type of wood that was not used in traditional Barolo winemaking, but I don’t think anyone would call Roberto Conterno or Oddero as anything but traditionalists.
I recently went to a wine tasting of Giuseppe Nada Barbaresco wines – they use French barrels, but the barrels are 1,000 to 4,000 liters and probably have been re-used a couple of cycles now. I can’t taste any oak in their wine, but because they are using French oak, even if the barrels are large and not new, I think (though I may be wrong) many people who post on this thread would say they are “leaning modernist.”
P.S.: Also, I didn’t intend to call you out specifically Otto – you had a great post on the materials used in winemaking, so I thought it would be good to ask the question in the context of what you wrote as a jumping off point. And from your reply, I guess you would say the type of wood doesn’t matter – just whether the barrel is old or new (and the size of the barrel), in determining whether the producer is modernist or traditionalist.
By coincidence, I was in the cellar of Castello di Verduno this morning, and asked about their Stockinger botti. They have had a relationship with the cooperage for decades; the use of botti made in other countries seems to me entirely consistent with ‘traditional’ winemaking. There is nothing modernist or quasi-modern about it at all, Castello di Verduno is interested in making Nebbiolo traditionally, using the best tools available, including Stockinger cooperage.
