Traditional vs. Modern Barolo / Barbaresco

[J_Henson]

Paitin or Azelia?

[John_Morris]

Paitin. I edited my post to make that clearer.

[Al_Ehrhardt]

I would be interested in the feedback of those following this thread on the ranking of Paitin in Neive as “median.” I have thought of their wines, which I really enjoy, as being traditionally made. I checked their website and see that they employ slow fermentation of about a month and age their wines in botti using Slavonian and Austrian oak. Any reason that I am not aware to classify them as anything other than traditional?

Like many producers, they experimented with new French barrels in the '90s and early '00s. When I visited them in 2006, they still had some barriques (I don’t think any were newer than 3 years IIRC?) but weren’t buying more and were in the process of going back to more traditional vinification methods.

Thanks for the info. For what it’s worth, I think Paitin stopped working with De Grazia at some point in the mid-2000s.

Coincidence, but I just opened my last 2005 Paitin Barbaresco Serra a couple of days ago and it was very good. Bought three in 2009 at Binny’s and it must have been an importer or wholesaler change blowout because when I looked up the price and it was $17! I hope I only bought three because that was all they had, and if not, a major screw up on my part…

[Oliver_McCrum]

Could could use an extended maceration time with roto fermenters to great a more extracted ‘modern’ wine? I.E., maceration time alone is not as relevant as the methods used alongside?

Responding to this old query…

As I recall, for the modernists, the point of the rotofermenters was to extract flavors while minimizing extraction of tannin relative to other components. Extended macerations would defeat the point of rotofermenters. It seems that might accentuate nebbiolos very strong tannins. (Hence the Cavallotto’s very judicious use of them for their barolos.)

Thank you!

Rotofermenters = more extraction/less tannin?
Extended maceration = get more natural extraction, but more tannin?
Cavallotto = judicious use of which?

Rotofermenters are tools that can be programmed to handle the must during fermentation in a number of ways; they are drum-shaped, with paddles inside, rather like large cement mixers. Alfio Cavalotto’s intention is to use long macerations to create classic ‘70% dark chocolate’ texture in his wines; he uses the roto-fermenter because he feels that the paddles break up the cap effectively but gently. This is entirely different from the common use of roto-fermenters in the '90s, where the whole point was to create an entirely different texture in the wines (not to mention that a high % of new French barriques followed). My experience of Cavalotto wines is that he has succeeded.

As this thread has shown, a ton of producers went to roto-fermenter/barrique winemaking in the '90s, and a very large number of them have since recanted and gone back to their roots. Mel Knox the barrel-meister once speculated that every wine type might have an appropriate kind of barrel, and I think he’s right.

[Tom_Taylor]

Interesting. I knew Margheria did not see Barrique along with the Riserva I think? How long has it been since the San Rocco and Bricco Fiasco have been aged in larger wood?

[J_Henson]

Either the 2016 or 2017 vintage, I think. When I last visited in 2019, they were down to 10% used barrique for San Rocco and Bricco Fiasco.

[J_Henson]

Mel Knox the barrel-meister once speculated that every wine type might have an appropriate kind of barrel, and I think he’s right.
[/quote]

This is interesting. Case in point was the cellar at Azelia. They have cru Barolo aging in botti made by Gamba (in Asti), Garbellotto (in Veneto) and Stockinger (in Austria). There appears to be a philosophy there of using a particular barrel with a particular cru.

[John_Morris]

Rotofermenters are tools that can be programmed to handle the must during fermentation in a number of ways; they are drum-shaped, with paddles inside, rather like large cement mixers. Alfio Cavalotto’s intention is to use long macerations to create classic ‘70% dark chocolate’ texture in his wines; he uses the roto-fermenter because he feels that the paddles break up the cap effectively but gently. This is entirely different from the common use of roto-fermenters in the '90s, where the whole point was to create an entirely different texture in the wines (not to mention that a high % of new French barriques followed). My experience of Cavalotto wines is that he has succeeded.

Do I recall that Cavalotto uses them at a very slow speed?

[Michael_H2]

Rotofermenters are tools that can be programmed to handle the must during fermentation in a number of ways; they are drum-shaped, with paddles inside, rather like large cement mixers. Alfio Cavalotto’s intention is to use long macerations to create classic ‘70% dark chocolate’ texture in his wines; he uses the roto-fermenter because he feels that the paddles break up the cap effectively but gently. This is entirely different from the common use of roto-fermenters in the '90s, where the whole point was to create an entirely different texture in the wines (not to mention that a high % of new French barriques followed). My experience of Cavalotto wines is that he has succeeded.

Do I recall that Cavalotto uses them at a very slow speed?

Yes - this is what I was told when visiting back in the fall of 2019. I think it was only a couple rotations per day.

[Oliver_McCrum]

Rotofermenters are tools that can be programmed to handle the must during fermentation in a number of ways; they are drum-shaped, with paddles inside, rather like large cement mixers. Alfio Cavalotto’s intention is to use long macerations to create classic ‘70% dark chocolate’ texture in his wines; he uses the roto-fermenter because he feels that the paddles break up the cap effectively but gently. This is entirely different from the common use of roto-fermenters in the '90s, where the whole point was to create an entirely different texture in the wines (not to mention that a high % of new French barriques followed). My experience of Cavalotto wines is that he has succeeded.

Do I recall that Cavalotto uses them at a very slow speed?

Exactly, I think only one or two turns a day. Not like a cement mixer, in other words.

[Marco_Maiocco]

Cadia is definitively modern, with barriques and very short maceration times

[Pat_Burton]

Cadia is definitively modern, with barriques and very short maceration times

Thank you for the info. I’ve updated the list.

[Dan_A]

Just found this thread and wanted to say “thank you” Pat for putting this list together and keeping it current.

[Tom_W]

@Paul T. Entiren

Lots of oak flavors in the glass of these Barolos/Barbarescos
Marchesi di Gresy
Giorgio Pelissero
E. Pira e Figli-Chiara Boschis

these are traditionalists
Beni di Batasiolo
Cigliuti
Fratelli Serio e Battista Borgogno
Ghisolfi
Pertinace
Luigi Pira
Poderi Colla/Cascina Drago
Principano
Punset
Roagna
Gigi Rosso

somewhere in between
Damilano
Michele Charlo

As Pat said, Pira uses some barriques on some bottlings (e.g., Vignarionda) but only botte on others (e.g., Margheria), and 12-15 day macerations, which is relatively short.

It’s a similar story at Ghisolfi, which makes barriqued wines (Bricco Visetti) and some aged in botte (Bussia), but all with short maceration times (12 and 10 days, respectively, according to the web site).

Great thread. Regarding the Luigi Pira Vignarionda (Vigna Rionda), per the WA review of the 2016 “It is partially aged in French barrique and partially in botte grande.”

[Laurent_Gibet]

Sorry for the delay, but all suggestions have been reviewed and edited accordingly. I remain happy to receive other information or suggestions for edits.

Claudio Boggione Barolo Brunate 2015 : 16,5/20 - 8/4/2022
Boisé, fumé. Rude, terreux, concentré/tannique. Senteurs de goudron et rose. Viril (amer, astringent). Pas facile de trancher entre nebbiolo et sangiovese (Brunello). Attendre quelques années pour le boire.

[Ian_Sutton]

Has anyone got any tweezers to help Laurent remove the splinters from that wine

[Guillermo_M]

BUMP

This important thread doesn’t seem to have been updated in a while.

@Anders_Westholm

Gillardi: Has only recently started to make Barolo. The first vintage might be 2011. Not sure about how it is vinified but it would surprise me if it would fall in the modernist or “lean modern” camp. This is another favorite producer, although I visit them primarily on account of their Dolcetto (Cursalet and Maestra, very good and not expensive) and their Syrah (Harys, which is 30 euro at the winery but very good). Haven’t yet had an opportunity to try their Barolo.

@k_s_h_i_n

2013 Gillardi Barolo Vignane - Italy, Piedmont, Langhe, Barolo (11/13/2017)
Served blind, soft and warm red fruit, strawberry, cherry, cinnamon, rose, nutmeg and iron. Medium concentration, round and warm red fruit driven palate impression, medium acidity, good iron/mineral presence and a clean medium finish with soft red fruit at the end. Our guess is Barolo which is correct, a big relief! This is a very pretty early drinking Barolo. (93 pts.)

As per the website, Gillardi uses large Slavonian oak botti. Their importer says 20hL botti. (For comparison Francesco Rinaldi uses 50hL, Burlotto uses 35-50hL. Vajra uses 25-50hL). Given Kevin’s note that the 2013 was early drinking, I think Gillardi (which is currently listed as Info not available) should likely be on the Lean Traditional list (maybe with a note that it could me Median) unless anyone objects.

[John_Morris]

Once you’re at 20hL (2,000 liters), wood shouldn’t be a factor in the wine, and the size of the relative size of the botti shouldn’t determine if the producer is a modernist or not. For small producers, the size of the botti may be determined by the size of their production. They may simply not have enough for a 35hl or 40hl tank.

Of course, there are other factors that could explain the openness of the '13 – shorter maceration time, for example – that might qualify as more modern.

[Guillermo_M]

@Anders_Westholm

Cascina Cucco: barriques are used for the first year of aging.

As I pointed out, both the fermentation/maceration time and the wood regime vary depending on which bottling we are talking about. The Barolo Serralunga ages in botti only, the Cerrati ages partly in small barrels (probably tonneaux) of the third passage and partly in botti, and the Cerrati Vigna Cucco ages in barriques. I therefore suggest that you put this winery into the category “Variable by individual wine”.

Cascina Cucco, which is listed as Modernist and has now been called Tenuta Cucco for over a decade, should be Variable by individual wine, as pointed out by Anders above.
Specifically (unless anyone objects):

• Barolo Cerrati - modern (20-25 days maceration, French barrels 1 year and Botti 1 year)
• Barolo Cerrati Vigna Cucco Riserva - modern (30 day maceration, French barrels 3 years)
• Barolo del Comune di Serralunga d’Alba - median (or lean traditional?) (destemmed, 10-day fermentation followed by 8-10 day submerged cap maceration, followed by rackings for a few days, then 25hL Slavonian oak botti 2 years) details here
• Barolo Bricco Voghera - traditional (lean?) (destemmed, 3-day fermentation followed by 30 day maceration, then 25hL Slavonian oak botti 30 months) details here

[Guillermo_M]

@John_Morris

Once you’re at 20hL (2,000 liters), wood shouldn’t be a factor in the wine …

Of course, there are other factors that could explain the openness of the '13 – shorter maceration time, for example – that might qualify as more modern.

So Lean Traditional for Gillardi without a note until anyone comes up with more info?