So yes , that lends to my suspicion that the roses made via direct press might lose a little something faster than say rose made via saignee like Tavel.
@ Alan - I’ve had Tempier and enjoyed it but never tried it with any bottle age. Like you I tend to prefer them young , but I have scored many a tasty Tavel on closeout because it was the prior vintage and thoroughly enjoyed them.
@ Hardy - Wow …very cool and educational , I suspect most would prefer it sooner than that though.
For what it’s worth, Tavel isn’t required to be produced via saignee, and is most often made via direct pressing (since red ‘Tavel’ can’t be labeled as such, it makes a lot more sense to just grow your grapes in Tavel for Rose and buy cheaper land in the rest of the Cotes du Rhone for your CdR). You’re confusing maceration time and grape variety, which impacts color/things associated with skin contact, with technique for making a wine rose (vs white/red). You can have a direct press rose that spends 2 or 48 hours on the skin, and you could have a saignee’d wine that only spent 30 minutes on the skins (though it wouldn’t likely have much color).
IMHO, I think that rose is always better when it’s direct press, all other things being equal, because the winemaker is able to pick for acidity in a way that’s not possible if trying to make a red and bleeding some juice off.
In Tavel the traditional method of rose production is via Saignee. Where do you get your information that most is done direct press? Direct press is the traditional method in Provence and leads to a greater aromatic expression which can be enhanced by doing the process under inert gas. I don’t think I’m in confusion…saignee produces a deeper darker color rose(Tavel) which is less aromatic but more tannic(hence more ageworthy)
I went back to check and see if I was confused in any way…this is from the French Wine Scholar manual from the Wine Scholar Guild:
Page 257 - Tavel AOC(100% Rose) Although crafted primarily from grenache there are 9 sanctioned grape varieties growing on sand , galets , and limestone within this appellation. Vinification must be made via saignee…Tavel stands out among rose for it’s concentration and structure.
Heath, I have no idea whether or not the “traditional” method of Tavel is saignee or not, just that most of the leading producers I know of (L’Anglore, Trinquevedel, Mordoree…) all use direct pressing.
Saignee means “to bleed” and refers to the idea of siphoning off some of the juice from a tank of fermenting red wine. This wine, which sees less skin contact than the red which results, is much lighter in color (ie: a rose). The goal of saignee, then, is to increase the ratio of skins to juice in the remaining red, while producing a sellable secondary product (you don’t want to throw away juice if you can help it). Saignee roses are often darker and more tannic, but that’s not a function of the process–it’s based on the grapes in question and how long the maker chooses to leave the juice on the skins before the bleed. I’ll grant that the skins used for saignee are probably quicker to extract, as they’re probably picked riper and therefore break down easier, but the method doesn’t mandate a dark rose. It does probably mean a rose with less acid and so you might want a higher degree of tannin in there, but again, it’s not required (nor would I think that a low acid/higher tannin rose would de facto age better than a high acid/low tannin rose)
Part of the reason that most of the higher quality Tavel producers use a direct press method (now, at least, again I don’t care to speculate on the history without researching) is that the Tavel AOC is rose only. If you were to do a true saignee, you would be left with some red wine, which you’d have to bottle as either a Cotes-du-Rhone or a VdT/F (I’m a bit too lazy to figure that out at the moment). If you owned land in Tavel, you’d much rather have 100% of your grapes go into a Tavel AOC wine than a Cotes-du-Rhone, especially given how hot rose is as a market right now.
On the inert gas question–that’s to limit oxidation during pressing. If you’re using a shorter skin contact period, you won’t have as much of the anti-oxidant properties of the skins in your juice, and so for lighter, Provencal-style, rose that makes sense–you want to preserve freshness.
Heath,
I see you edited your post while I was typing a reply, so sorry if there’s a bit of ships passing.
Vinification does not “have” to be saignee–see for example Trinquevedel (link here: Château de Trinquevedel | Our Wines | Kermit Lynch Wine Merchant) or Mordoree (here:http://www.kysela.com/wine/wine-brand/mordoree/mordoree-tavel-rose-dame-rousse/2015-mordoree-tavel-rose-dame-rousse.html)
Furthermore, what is meant by saignee in the case of Trinquevedel is simply wine that was left on the skins for an extra period of time (which is much shorter than a red wine maceration) and then pressed (so there’s a free run portion and then a pressed portion). I have no idea if the “wine scholar guild” is more reputable than wikipedia, however, the favorite reference point of the internet differs from what you have on page 257 (Rosé - Wikipedia).
Like I said, the method doesn’t dictate color, only the combination of skin contact and the grapes used.
I actually represent Mordoree here in Texas , but they are new to us so I have no idea what production methods are used. Yes Tavel is 100% rose , so no red can be sold as Tavel…I guess I was wrong but I always assumed they bled off the free run and then blended it back in at some point(after fermentation) so that no wine was wasted. So are you a winemaker? Wine Scholar Guild is an educational organization(used to be French wine exclusively) that was the French Wine Society , but rebranded because they wanted to sound less like a club. At any rate that is where my information came from.
Not a winemaker, though hopefully someday…
Also a lurker reminds me that saignee can also be a term for rose made by limited skin contact in any way, as opposed to by blending white and red wines together. I believe that’s what Vouette et Sorbee mean with their Saignee de Sorbee, for example, even though we might call the wines direct press based on their protocols. Probably(?) what your guide meant about Tavel, which would explain the confusion.
Also I hope I don’t come off as too snippy–I just remember having to unlearn a lot of things that sales reps told me when I was starting out and that triggered a long-dormant “someone is wrong on the internet” reaction that I try and avoid.
[edited to remove double posted text]
So, to sum up:
If I’ve never drunk Tempier Rosé at more than 2 years old, it doesn’t age well.
If I’ve drunk it at 2-4 years and it seemed less fresh than before that, it can’t be good after that, despite contrary evidence for countless wines.
If you drank aged Tempier Rosé and loved it, I’m pretty sure other people wouldn’t like it.
To correct something I said earlier, it appears that Tempier rose is actually a blend of direct press, press of short maceration, and some saignee. Just to muddy the water.
Not sure about Tavel, but I recently tasted a number of them at Hospice du Rhone and and many of them taste like direct press roses. But, I think what Tavel calls saignee is bleeding off juice from grapes macerated on the skins even if they were early pick harvest. That’s different from bleeding off juice from grapes picked later for red wines. Also, note that Tavel allows for the inclusion of white grape varieties.
-Al
From the book on Tavel wines that was being handed out at Syndicat AOC Tavel table at Hospice du Rhône - “Tavel: The People and the Wines” by Rolf Bichsel - the Tavel wines are indeed made by a combination of direct press and saignée from early-picked fruit following skin contact for a short time (12 to 48 hours). In this case, “saignée” sounds more like free-run juice collected from the macerated grapes prior to pressing them rather than bleeding off juice from riper grapes that will be made into red wine.
FYI: topic relabeled to reflect what it has become, an interesting discussion on Tavel production!
Yeah sorry man. I’ll take responsibility for that , but my goal was to express that the reason some rose’s age better is probably related to the way they’re made.
@ Saul - I didn’t take anything you said as being snippy. The only thing I’m having trouble wrapping my mind around that you said is relating to saignee. “Saignee roses are often darker and more tannic, but that’s not a function of the process–it’s based on the grapes in question and how long the maker chooses to leave the juice on the skins before the bleed. I’ll grant that the skins used for saignee are probably quicker to extract, as they’re probably picked riper and therefore break down easier, but the method doesn’t mandate a dark rose.”
I learned that saignee production was all about the skin contact(enhanced by bleeding off the first run juice) so I’m finding it difficult to see how you can separate the method from the result.
@ Al - yeah I read that on the wikipedia site that they include white grapes. I had never heard that , and it certainly didn’t come out in the section of the manual that covers Rose production or Tavel. I’m curious to know how long they’ve been doing that.
@ Ken - very interesting. Again , I just always assumed(or got it from somewhere) that all the juice from the initial pressing was combined back into the must post fermentation since there is no red Tavel produced(why waste product otherwise?).
edited to include this :
Before they updated the Rhone Masters level course(taught by Roger Bohmrich MW) I was studying for it(I decided to do Burgundy instead before doing Rhone)…they took several months to update it and perhaps they changed the study manual but here is an excerpt from the old one : "There are 9 sanctioned grape varieties in Tavel , allowing for color variations it’s 15. The wines are principally Grenache with a minimum of 15% Cinsault. Up to 10% Picpoul(white or red) , Carignan , Bourboulenc(white) , Clairette(white) , Mourvedre , and Syrah. Calitor is permitted but rare. No single variety may comprise more than 60% of the finished wine. Yields are capped at 42 hl/ha. Tavel is a rose de saignee. Skin contact averages 12-48 hours. Free run and press juice are added together ; malolactic is a stylistic decision which varies from producer to producer
I get what you’re asking, and the best way to think about it would be as a hypothetical—so imagine a saignee’d wine that was bled off 2 hours into production. The bled off juice would be fairly light in color and wouldn’t be terribly tannic, or any of the things that you might think of w/r/t a “saignee rose.”
In wine number two, the same grape varieties are macerated on their skins for 48 hours (a la Tavel) before direct press. The wine is much darker, richer, tannic, etc because the juice has had a lot more time to extract color and flavor from the skins. It’s direct press rose, but not light and delicate.
You also could complicate things by imagining things with different grapes. So if an American Pinot Noir producer wanted to make a rose, (s)he might use saignee, but someone down the road with a lot of Syrah might go the direct press route. If they both macerated for the same approximate time, the direct press Syrah would be darker than the saignee’d Pinot Noir, just because of the nature of the grapes.
So the method (saignee/direct press) isn’t determinative of the outcome w/r/t things like color/tannin.
Yeah I think I’ve got the gist of it now , thanks. With global warming changing the wine world it would hardly surprise me that methods would change and techniques would be adopted that allowed to make the best wine possible. As a drift… The Mordoree Tavel stuff is done presale and always sells out. I can’t even get a bottle to show(and taste myself) because it’s all spoken for beforehand. I really want to taste it , but if I do I’m paying full retail for it from someone who bought it.
Gee, I always have to pay full retail for all of my wines. ![[swearing.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/8a0d3f3461d40641d294442fc2be78039bf94d19.gif "[swearing.gif]"){kind=small}
![[scratch.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/4/42a16863a8714da3c1604419e3eb9206bb87aa50.gif "scratch"){kind=small}
Well Markus , there has to be some advantage to being ITB , it sure isn’t a 6 figure income. 
I had a bottle of the 2014 Tempier rose last month- delicious. Bought a bottle of 2015 Pradeaux Bandol rose to hold for a few years. FWIW I prefer southern French rose with a lot of Syrah or Mourvèdre, as the predominantly Grenache based Tavel and CdR rose wines are frequently too fleshy/flabby and alcoholic for my tastes. Just to add, that when I lived in the Rhone valley many years ago, I was told that the Lirac rose was frequently just as good as Tavel for less money!
Had the 2014 Tempier rosè last week. My first Tempier rose with age. I thought it was great, albeit clearly different than examples drank 3-4 months after release. I’ll hold my last bottle for another year.
Wow! I have never seen so much discussing on the topic of Rosé, never mind Tavel…
Cool information, y’all. My head is spinning a little, however…
Had a 2013 last week. 8th out of a case. Delicious! 3
More left!!