Glad to see Schloss Lieser getting some love from Howard 
I considered each producer Mat and Howard listed. Top 15 would likely have gotten it done.
Not that I drink a lot of German wine - Iâm more of a dabbler.
But Robert Weil is one producer that has impressed the hell out of me almost every time I try one.
And for a self-described dabbler, I do actually own 6 of Howardâs âtop 14â.
So reaching out to David, Mat, and Howard on this⊠what about a set of the producers youâd consider â2nd tierâ (in the sense of very, very good producers who arenât yet at that elite level of say Muller or Prum in terms of consistency/overall quality)?
David - no love for Keller. I really like his wines. But I agree with you on seven of ten and I am not familiar with the other three. Must check them out.
Jay,
I have tried a lot of Keller wines, both dry and sweet, and they just do not hit me in the right spot. I keep trying though.
Salil,
Too many to name.
David -
How are Weilâs QBA and estate level bottlings? His others get to high in price but these bottlings seem to sit around on shelves around here.
Here are a few. This is not a complete list. I havenât tasted every top sweet winemaker in Germany (not even all of the dry winemakers).
I really like Jakob Schneider and I think he gets better every year. Heâs a protege of Donnhoff and has a lot of land in NiederhĂ€user Hermannshöhle. Heâs a young guy and will be pushing the top 10-15 soon if he keeps it up consistently. His wines are an incredible steal (Terry) and I buy them every year. Also a heck of a nice guy.
JJ Christofel - love UW and EP (Terry)
Dr Crusius Nahe (drinking tonight)
Weiser Kunstler - great, elegant wines from a lovely young couple in the Mosel. Really, really elegant.
Stefan Steinmetz (although I usually drink his off dry wines he makes great, elegant sweet wines that donât usually come to the US) Mosel
Kellerâs are pretty good though not as good as his dry wines imho.
Dr. F Weins-Prum in high acid years, his wines are filagreed and very good. Mosel
Monchhof - great values, some of his more expensive wines that donât make it into the US are pretty good.
Emrich-Schönleber for those of you who love high acid
None listed by name are wines that Lyle sells.
Lyle has sold 2 at the top of my next tier along with 1 additional that makes excellent elegant sweet wines that he has only sold the dry wines. I wonât mention names on this forum. E-Mail me if you care.
Oops forgot newcomer Julian Haart.
Donât understand comment
There probably are a lot - start with Christoffel and Merkelbach. Muller-Catoir. Lieser. Maybe von Hovel, Bert Simon. Karthauserhofberg. Strub. Is Heyl still good, have not seen one in a while. A number of others.
But with one or two exceptions the prices of these are no cheaper than many of my favorites.
Do you get the wines of Kajo Christoffel (Christoffel jun.) in the US? Heâs sort of a cult producer for old-school style off-dry Mosel Riesling in Germany. Christoffel Erben does not seem to be as popular in Germany as Christoffel jun. I for myself havenât tried many of the Christoffel Erben wines pre or post 2001.
Maybe itâs the word âtierâ that implies more differentiation to me than it should, but I donât care for the concept of 2nd tier.
If we get into some attempt at listing the 2nd tier this will turn into another thread where people just keep adding names because they had a good wine one time. It becomes a pointless exercise. I can throw out names such as St. Urbans-Hof, Meulenhof and Jakob Schneider (Mat - we agree there), not to mention Vollenweider, and the oft-ignored Dr. Loosen (even if itâs not a personal favorite). Then thereâs the case of the old Schmitt-Wagner estate (now under the management of Carl Loewen) that made some of the most satisfying, old school wines I have ever tried. Sadly those days are gone, as the Loewen versions are good but not the same. And old school would not be in session without the Merkelbach brothers.
I could go on and on and on and on.
And on.
And on.
Though Iâd argue that MC deserved 1st tier status in the HGS era.
David - I agree with you on Keller. I donât understand the fuss or the prices.
Catoir until 2001 would have been in my top 5.
I also agree on Keller. And, I want to love them, he seemed neat when I met him in NY at the Rieslingfeier and seems to be trying to do everything right.
Not sure. Lots of really good wines, really good (e.g, 1986 Rieslaner TBA). But too many that did not really age (eg, 1986 Rieslaner TBA). Certainly would have been on my top 10 or 15 list. Not sure about top 5.
Another non top 15 winery that I think makes good value wines is Hexamer.
This whole idea of tiers breaks down when I consider wineries such as Hexamer, Strub and Reuscher-Haart (to name three I buy from on a semi-regular basis). I do not want to leave them out, as the wines are always good and sometimes much, much better than that.
Carl Schmitt-Wagner and Alfred Merkelbach are indeed well-liked âold-schoolâ producers. As Steven mentioned above, Iâd add Jos. Christoffel jr., too. Like the Merkelbachs, Kajo is also based in Ărzig and is nearing retirement. Hans Leo Christoffel of Joh. Jos. Christoffel Erben, who is now retired and whose estate is run by Robert Eymael of Mönchhof, is another grower worth mentioning. Yet there are many more good producers, past and present, of residually sweet German Rieslings. In Piesport, Reinhold Haart is the top producer, but SpĂ€ter-Veit also produces very good wines in this style, along with their dry Piesporters.