TN: Is blind tasting possible?

[Alan_Rath]

@c fu

i dunno, it was in the first sentence, seemed pretty clear

I knew I left myself open. My point was that there was a disclaimer in the first sentence, but then no later conclusion or refutation of the premise being tested (which itself wasn’t particularly clear). Frankly, I still don’t know what the premise was: is blind tasting BS because informed tasters can generally identify wines? (Not my experience, BTW). Is it BS because most people can’t identify wines (closer to my experience)? David seems to suggest both, in the group consensus being able to identify region, while he mistook the Allemand for Bordeaux. Just saying I wasn’t originally sure of the premise, and I’m still not quite sure.

And, just for the record, the Alzinger is a pretty fabulous wine, though I could see it having some difficulty after a night of all those bigger red wines.

[Robert.A.Jr]

@Jay Miller

@DavidZ

1974 Les Plantiers du Haut-Brion - France, Bordeaux, Graves, Pessac-Léognan (8/14/2015)
I thought this was lovely, though obviously quite old. The nose is rather spectacular, with honey, pineapple, earwax, lilies, vanilla and some VA. The palate is less exciting - sort of unctuous and almost sweet, with long acidity, but a touch flat. But this is just wonderful to sniff and gives a lot of pleasure - a wonderful example of aged white Bordeaux. Very divisive wine - this was WOTN for some and undrinkable for others (90 pts.)

From you rating I take it you’ve finally tried a white Bordeaux you like?

I was about to say he raved about the Northern Rhone syrah masquerading as a Bordeaux, but then saw the word “white”. DavidZ is a tough scorer.

[Ian_Sutton]

@DavidZ

@c fu

What was the reasoning behind why blind tasting is bullshit?

He believed that no one could really tell the differences between wines blind

Ah, the clarification helps - like others, I had no idea what the hypothesis was in your original post.

[Chris_Seiber]

@DavidZ

@Ken V

It was confusing to me because “blind tasting” has so many meanings. Most commonly, I think of blind tasting several wines from the same region in order to fairly evaluate them.

You and me both. And yet the challenge presented was what it was.

Right. I think the guessing game can be amusing once in awhile, but the most important and common purpose of blind tasting is to remove your bias and preconceptions and to taste what’s in your glass honestly, usually tasting wines from some category next to each other.

I think the way I would have titled this thread would be something like “How well can experienced tasters ID the category in a blind tasting?” or something like that. That’s not meant as a slam on David, just my thought on distinguishing what the actual contest / challenge was in this instance.

[Dav1dZ]

@Chris Seiber

@DavidZ

@Ken V

It was confusing to me because “blind tasting” has so many meanings. Most commonly, I think of blind tasting several wines from the same region in order to fairly evaluate them.

You and me both. And yet the challenge presented was what it was.

Right. I think the guessing game can be amusing once in awhile, but the most important and common purpose of blind tasting is to remove your bias and preconceptions and to taste what’s in your glass honestly, usually tasting wines from some category next to each other.

I think the way I would have titled this thread would be something like “How well can experienced tasters ID the category in a blind tasting?” or something like that. That’s not meant as a slam on David, just my thought on distinguishing what the actual contest / challenge was in this instance.

To be fair, bias and preconceptions can affect your judgment of regions, as well as label. For example, I associate N. Rhone with the green/reductive/stemmy style, but that’s probably because I drink at a price point way below where Allemand trades these days. Similarly, I rarely drink young Bordeaux from leaner years, so when I tasted the greenness and reduction, I assumed I had a N. Rhone in my glass. If not for tasting blind, I’d never recalibrate my expectations - now when I run into a wine showing ripe, pure blackberry fruit with a streak of acid, “Rhone” will be on my diagnostic checklist; before, it wouldn’t have been.

[Alan_Rath]

@DavidZ

If not for tasting blind, I’d never recalibrate my expectations - now when I run into a wine showing ripe, pure blackberry fruit with a streak of acid, “Rhone” will be on my diagnostic checklist; before, it wouldn’t have been.

That makes a little more sense. BTW, you can get more of that pure blackberry fruit with quite a number of lesser priced Rhones. In particular, give Faury a try (I prefer the VV bottling, though some here have expressed a preference for the non-VV). It’s usually in the $30-40 range, and always delivers pretty well.

[Hank_Gillespie]

Pieter Bruegel, the Flemish Renaissance painter, completed a canvas known as The Blind Leading the Blind in 1568.

I wonder if the figures he captured on canvas were refugees from a wine tasting…whether or not the region was announced in advance. The conclusion to the Fresca radio commercial some years back ended with “Seems to be a problem here, Orly (Dunstan).”

If DavidZ is happy with his ‘experiment’ why should anyone else be critical, even though most of us still don’t understand the terms of the experiment and the resulting conclusions.

Hank

[Dav1dZ]

@Alan Rath

@DavidZ

If not for tasting blind, I’d never recalibrate my expectations - now when I run into a wine showing ripe, pure blackberry fruit with a streak of acid, “Rhone” will be on my diagnostic checklist; before, it wouldn’t have been.

That makes a little more sense. BTW, you can get more of that pure blackberry fruit with quite a number of lesser priced Rhones. In particular, give Faury a try (I prefer the VV bottling, though some here have expressed a preference for the non-VV). It’s usually in the $30-40 range, and always delivers pretty well.

Faury is my favorite mid-priced Rhone producer. I agree on the resemblance though the Allemand was as if the intensity dial had been turned to 11.

[Dav1dZ]

@Hank Gillespie

Pieter Bruegel, the Flemish Renaissance painter, completed a canvas known as The Blind Leading the Blind in 1568.

I wonder if the figures he captured on canvas were refugees from a wine tasting…whether or not the region was announced in advance. The conclusion to the Fresca radio commercial some years back ended with “Seems to be a problem here, Orly (Dunstan).”

If DavidZ is happy with his ‘experiment’ why should anyone else be critical, even though most of us still don’t understand the terms of the experiment and the resulting conclusions.

Hank

To be fair, there’s a lineup of folks who will profess to disagree with whatever I post. If I’d posted about my trip to the toilet this morning, 3 guys would have been elbowing each other out of the way to be first to post that one should always hold it in.

[John_Morris]

This reminds me of the comparative stemware tasting I forced on a group of mine where the members, who rotate in hosting, used to have appalling glasses. Everyone thought it was BS to think the glass affected the taste … until they tried the same wine out of two or three very different glasses. Tasting is believing.

@DavidZ

To be fair, there’s a lineup of folks who will profess to disagree with whatever I post. If I’d posted about my trip to the toilet this morning, 3 guys would have been elbowing each other out of the way to be first to post that one should always hold it in.

[Jon_Hesford]

I don’t think blind tasting is BS. However, this tasting was not completely blind as the tasters had a multiple choice of regions to choose from so more like a blind match-wine-to-region game.

Blind tasting to try to guess a wine’s identity is a completely different game and requires a different set of skills to blind tasting in order to judge quality, like awarding points blind.

Also, if you look at the results of the “World’s Best Sommellier” competition blind tasting results, you will see that, without a multiple choice available, the guesses from these very experienced people are almost random.

[M.Kaplan]

From Harry Waugh’s obituary in the Telegraph:

“Waugh had a dry and subtle wit. He once reputedly declared that the first duty of wine is to be red, the second to be a Burgundy, whilst his reply when asked whether he had ever confused a claret with a Burgundy (“Not since lunch”) has entered wine trade lore.”

[Mel_Knox]

I don’t believe in blind tasting old great wines, but tasting blind 5 to 8 wines of a theme helps one to overcome label prejudices etc.

When I was in retail, we did similar ‘Tour de France’ blind tastings and it was always fun.

Nowadays it would be fun to mess with the minds of the tasters…all American oak wines from all over the world…

A friend of mine liked to play tricks…sauternes in a Moselle bottle…everyone would sneak a peek at the bottle and make wild guesses…

[SarahE]

I think calling this deductive tasting would be more suited then blind tasting.

[John_Morris]

@Mel Knox

Nowadays it would be fun to mess with the minds of the tasters…all American oak wines from all over the world…

For years I’ve wanted to do a blind tasting of international styled wines from around the world (US, France, Spain, Italy, Oz) to see if anyone could guess the grape or where they were from. The chief requirements would be heavy oak (of whatever origin) and super heavy bottles with deep punts.

[Alain_M]

@Jon Hesford

Also, if you look at the results of the “World’s Best Sommellier” competition blind tasting results, you will see that, without a multiple choice available, the guesses from these very experienced people are almost random.

I don’t think they do random guesses, rather they try and guess the wine based on aspects they identify in the wine (colour to determine age, chocolate that could point to grenache being in the blend, etc.).

But I see what you mean, when you look at the results these guys are not better than your average WB (well, maybe a bit, but I was very surprised their guesses were so off at times).

Alain

[RS_Beck]

I don’t believe there is any doubt that double blind testing is a bonafide way to determine if subjects can reliably discern differences between and the identity of certain products. In this case, wine.

The question at hand is whether these particular tasters can pass a double blind test and reliably identify the region/grapes from which the wine originates.

Double blind testing with wine is definitely possible, passing a double blind test with wine is questionable.

Since it was not double blind and the sample size is rather small, the question with regard to this particular group remains unanswered.

[BrianMarshall]

I find them to be as informative as they are deceptive, depending on the circumstances.

[Dav1dZ]

@RS Beck

I don’t believe there is any doubt that double blind testing is a bonafide way to determine if subjects can reliably discern differences between and the identity of certain products. In this case, wine.

The question at hand is whether these particular tasters can pass a double blind test and reliably identify the region/grapes from which the wine originates.

Double blind testing with wine is definitely possible, passing a double blind test with wine is questionable.

Since it was not double blind and the sample size is rather small, the question remains unanswered.

Why is that the question at hand? The guy posing the question proposed a single blind tasting. Your question may be unanswered; his was answered.

[RS_Beck]

Because if you want your results to mean anything with regard to blind tasting, it would behoove you to follow double blind protocol and rule out other possible explanations for your results.