As they say, there are no bad wines, only deuchebags on the internet who insist that if other folks didn’t like their sacred cows, the flaws must lie with the tasters or the tastings.
Various bottles of 25-30 year old Laville-Haut-Brion(mostly from the 1980ies) is probably the best white wine I’ve ever had. Purely subjective, but still…
I’ll just agree to disagree with you and leave out the personal insults.
Wow. That’s a weirdly paranoid thing to say.
Douchebags too.
I swear I am not involved in any Bordeaux Blanc making.
Too far to go there riding my tractor, which seems to be the maximum distance from the cellar bearable for making decent wines.
You would have liked the acid structure of these wines, Eric. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
I’ve got some that might be pretty good and are now 10+ years old but I haven’t found an occasion to open them; maybe this winter.
The '99 Pavillon Blanc, a couple of years ago, was one of the best white wines I’ve ever had, from anywhere, and it wasn’t particularly easy to peg as a white Bordeaux. I didn’t buy it but I don’t think it was ruinously expensive back then, not like HB blanc.
I don’t drink that much white Bordeaux, but every time I have had Domaine de Chevalier or Carbonnieux I have really liked it. The 2001 Carbonnieux aged extremely well. That said, while Carbonnieux is still not badly priced, I can buy Dublere Corton Charlemagne for the price of the DdC and would rather have the white Burg.
I thought Anthony’s response was well within the bounds of rational discussion. Your response, however, is not. You might want to apologize. If you don’t want people to disagree with you, don’t post tasting notes on a bulletin board.
David is discussing only the German ones.
I quite liked five of the eight wines and – significantly – I liked the more mature ones better than the young ones. I disliked those where the sauvignon grassiness dominated. Dry Creek sauvignon blanc was never my thing.
Retasting leftovers of four tonight confirmed my sense last night that the best were very good, and young. I loved the oak on these last night and have no doubt that, with age, that will marry well to everything else. I found they got better in the glass last night, both as they warmed up and then when we refreshed our glasses toward the end from the refrigerated bottles. They held up very well overnight, too. Not a trace of deterioration in the four I retasted tonight.
- 2010 Chateau Olivier ($52): Lots of oak on the nose and in the mouth, and a bit of sauvignon grass, but beautifully melded. Great acidity and length on the finish. It’s taught and still quite young. This could easily take another five years of aging, and will go much longer than that, I think. 91+
- 2010 Clos Floridene ($31): This had major QPR for me and I’ll buy some, just to spite David Z if nothing else. The muscadelle (3%) shows itself in the nose with a little floral and spicy note. The semillon (47%) – the creamy texture and flavor – was very apparent in the mouth tasting it blindly, and again tonight. But the sauvignon and muscadelle are there, too, together with some oak. This wine keeps my interest because it has so many elements in play. A long finish. 90
- 2009 Domaine de Chevalier ($100): This is one of those wines where specific elements don’t jump out. It’s the overall elegance that stands out, and I marked it up last night as it sat out. Tonight everything is in balance, it has body yet is not heavy or too rich. 89+ last night/90+ tonight. And that may underestimate it.
- 2009 Chateau de Fieuzal ($56): Some oak on the nose and in the mouth last night. This was the seventh wine in the flight and I was preoccupied with hosting, so it got short shrift in descriptors, but it got better over the course of the evening. I was struck by the balance and long finish. I’m sorry there wasn’t enough left over to sample tonight. 88 and rising last night.
- 2012 Chateau Carbonnieux ($44): Some grass on the nose, yesterday and today. This is lighter in body than most, with a great acid backbone. Very young. Perhaps a tad short at the end. 88 and rising last night. A very nice wine.
- 2010 Chateau La Louviere ($40): Lots of oak on the nose and in the mouth yesterday. Good acid, but a tad too much grass for me. A bit tart on the finish. No leftovers. 86-
- 2012 Chateau Auney L’Hermitage Cuvee Cana ($44): Slight sauvignon grass on the nose. Pleasant enough but not much depth. Sort of boring. I think this was the wine we compared to an albarino. Meh. Potable on a warm summer night, but not worth the money. A trace of bitterness in the finish. Wood?
- 2013 Chateau Graville-Lacoste ($19): I ranked this eighth, versus the group’s first place. Go figure. Very, very grassy – on the nose and in the mouth. Not my thing. Some sweet kiwi fruit later. Very young. 84
Notes: I don’t score many wines over 90, so an 88 or 90 for me is a wine I’d very much enjoy.
It would be nice if we had cellars of old white Bordeaux, but as is clear from this thread, hardly anyone does. Normally this group tastes a single region and a single vintage, but that wasn’t possible in this case.
It wasn’t random picks from the neighborhood store. The person who organized it was aiming for a range of prices from producers with good reputations. He had to shop at five stores and settle for different vintages.
You shouldn’t read anything into the Graville-Lacoste coming out first in the group, as it was only a couple of points ahead of the 10 Olivier and 11 Fieuzal. I’d say it’s popularity owes more to people in the group (not I) liking sauvignon grass.
It’s funny, because I kind of shrugged at that wine, probably because of the vintage. It was nice, but it was atypical for Maximin Grünhaus and the Ruwer, as it was a tad low in acid. I paid something like $25, which was OK. I wouldn’t pay $35 – not when there are so many great Germans (particularly 2012s) out there for less.
Bad dog, no treat.
+85
If you call a wine ‘mediocre’ based on a single experience in a drive-by tasting, you might reasonably expect some disagreement.
If your reaction to such disagreement is to reach for the ad hominem, it is you who are out of line.
I of course agree that David’s response was unnecessarily rude, but Anthony’s initial reply was silly. It was as if we’d done the same tasting in red and he’d replied, “Of course the wines were mediocre, you need to drink good vintages of Margaux or Latour to appreciate the genre.” Or as if we’d tasted a bunch of disappointing but normally well-regarded village and 1er red burgundy, and he’d replied, “Of course the wines were mediocre, you should have drank good vintages of La Tache and Rousseau Chambertin instead!”
If anything, Anthony’s response proves our rather than his point. If you need to be drinking the most expensive, trophiest wines from the top vintages that cost hundreds of dollars per bottle just to find something good and interesting, then the category is weak.
I agree that Anthony’s complaint was a bit snarky, albeit provoked by David’s provocative original post knocking the category.
But, after going over my notes and retasting some last night and looking at which wines I liked, I think Anthony’s point about these needing age is probably right. I think there a lot of potential in four or five of these wines but they’re hard to assess at this stage in their lives.
First of all, I wasn’t trying to be snarky at all; I apologize if I cam off that way.
I wasn’t even suggesting conducting a tasting of “trophy” wines. I’ve only been able to taste Haut Brion Blanc 3 times in my life, far fewer times then I’ve been able to drink wines that are much more expensive & sought after. The $35-$75 range in Bordeaux Blanc is my sweet spot, once some bottle age settles the hard edges, brisk acid and closed nature of the wines.
Ah, the old “you just haven’t had a dry white Bordeaux that is mature enough” line. Friends have been hitting me with that for the last 15 years and of the 20 or so bottles that have been inflicted on me I’ve liked one - a very nice 2004 Château Carbonnieux. But I didn’t like it enough to start buying any. Of course I also never called anyone names for saying it.