Quite close to a wine I had in june 2021, for a domain I just discovered : Angelo Germano LANGHE NEBBIOLO VISETTE 2017 : 16,5/20 – 24/6/2021
Very good traditional expressions, in both cases, with elegance and a good structure (ripeness, acidity, alcohol and tannins in good balance).
No impression of “it’s really too early”.
And I recently had annoying signs of suspicious oldness (soy sauce) with some 2009 (Aurelio Settimo Rocche and Massolino Vigna Rionda Riserva) and 2008 and 2004 (B. Mascarello).
Btw, I’m still waiting my Burlotto’s 2010 (and of course 2016). I bougth many 2016 Baroli - Cascina Sot, Angelo Germano, B. Mascarello, Burlotto, G. Rinaldi, … (and almost no 2017).
Per my note above, I concur with that “older than expected” from my 2009 Massolino Vigna Rionda. I didn’t think “soy sauce” but I can definitely get that impression from how I remember the wine, really savory/umami and almost devoid of fruit at least on the nose.
My experience with the 2017 also lines up with yours and Otto’s impressions (though it won’t make me shy away from buying and drinking them), I thought the 2017 are wonderful to enjoy young but i’ll put down 15/16/13s in my cellar.
I hear you. But just to latch on to what you’re saying, a couple of lateral observations .
Sure, I too have had (and will hopefully continue to have, at least for a while ) some gorgeous and perspective-changing experiences with aged Nebbiolo or Nebbiolo-based wines (talking about 40, 50 or more years old). Speaking of bottles in that range, though, and leaving aside some obvious variables (storage), I’ve also had my fair share of so-so, or even disappointing, results with bottles that came with lofty expectations (provenance, producer, vintage etc.), as well as some very pleasant surprises or, in some cases, even true epiphanies from less likely, or perhaps just less well-known, sources. Maybe I’m just stating the obvious, but, while most of us seem to think the potential reward is still more than worth a go, the gamble really is huge every time, and the results can be… quite random .
Secondly… I’ve been drinking a fair bit of Nebbiolo and Nebbiolo-based wines for quite a few years now, and, at this stage, my working hypothesis regarding the question “how long before I can meaningfully drink this” could be summed up as follows: while a great majority of those that I would consider serious or noteworthy wines might require anywhere between 10-20 years from the vintage to start showing what they’re made of, many will be drinking really well sooner. Of course, those truly requiring longer than that exist, but, on the whole, they are outliers.
I am also always on the lookout for that great, if sometimes a little elusive, aged/fully mature/old Nebbiolo experience. But to me Nebbiolo can be absolutely glorious when young or, even better, just on the cusp of early maturity, when everything really begins to meld together (yum). They’re all just very different experiences. It probably depends on a lot of things, including one’s preferences and aspirations .
Finally, on a side note, in Italy… Sure, many people who are serious about wine like to age their wines, but generally they also tend not to fret so much over whether and when exactly to open a bottle. I’m kind of like that .
I met Fabio Alessandria for a Burlotto’s verticale in 2015 (2011/1997). We agreed that these wines should no be kept to longly, 10 years seeming to be a good duration (caution : he also pointed that he did not produced the “oldest” vintages - Monvigliero 97, 98, 99).
His youngest wines were approchable.
And I was lucky enough to drint many young Baroli, from the best (traditional) producers.
I must also admit that I have few experience with great old Baroli …
Great Bordeaux often need at least 20/30 years of cellaring (eg Las Cases 1989 today).
Drinking them young seems to be a cruel error (except in primeur, of course).
I fully agree on how aging Nebbiolo can be completely random. I’ve had lots of very forgettable 40-60 yo Nebbiolos from excellent vintages like 1964, 1967 or 1970 - wines that have been in perfect condition storage-wise, but still haven’t turned into something magical along the way. And I’ve also had some some spectacular wines from off vintages one wouldn’t expect to see a wine age so gracefully for decades.
And I’m with you on the point that Nebbiolo might be at its best “just on the cusp of early maturity”, as you put it. For me, Nebbiolo is one the best varieties - if not THE best - to make really old wines; very few other varieties can constantly make wines that not only are drinkable after half a century or even more, but can also be some of the most stunning wines one can taste. However, I do feel that the sweet spot is where Nebbiolo retains still quite a bit of its youthful fruit and firm tannic grip in addition to the singular tertiary characteristics the variety often develops (and this is also the reason some of my favorite old Nebbiolos have been those that were not on their plateau of maturity, but still had a good deal of youthful fruit left to them and seemed like wines that could continue to improve for years, if not decades more).
While I do love Nebbiolo in its youth - and try to grasp every opportunity possible to taste them - they are wines I really don’t buy for myself. It’s really not because of me liking/not liking them, but because I still prefer Nebbiolo with some aged complexity to it and if I want to drink Nebbiolo young, I’d rather drink wines that feel like are best drunk in their youth so it doesn’t feel like I’m just wasting the wine’s potential. So basically this translates to Langhe Nebbiolo. Which, in turn, feels often rather underwhelming/overpriced compared to, say, Dolcettos, Grignolinos or Freisas of Piedmont. So when I want to drink young Nebbiolo at home, I’d rather just drink Dolcetto, Grignolino or Freisa and leave my ageworthy Nebbiolos to age a bit more. If that makes any sense.
And, like I said above, I’m not aiming to age my Nebbiolos for 40-60 years, but just old enough that they’re not young anymore, instead showing a bit of evolution as well. Besides that, I really don’t fret that much whether and when to open them!
I’m actually talking about Alto Piemonte / Carema / Aosta / Valtellina Nebbiolos as well, but I like to cram them them with all the Barolo / Barbaresco (and some Roero) Nebbiolos that call for some age.
And if you’re implying that there are wines outside Northern Italy, why should anyone care about those?
ME implying there are wines worth caring about outside Northern Italy? Perish the thought. For me it’s just something that French people claim every now and then, but I’m yet to see that claim substantiated in any shape or form.
You cramming all those together? And what about MY feelings? Seriously, though. As far as “Nebbiolo di montagna” is concerned (what a time saver, that phrase ), God help me, but I must have had literally thousands of those over the years, ranging from just released to, like, 9000 years old. Did many of them feel very young? Sure. Did some clearly transmit the idea that they would have been even better if they’d just been given more time? Sure. Did some seem like they would probably continue to meaningfully develop for another 30 or more years and reach dizzying heights in the process? Yes, I often had that impression. Did I ever come across bottles that were quite backward and appearing to be caught at an extremely awkward stage? Yes, but, generally really few and far between. But really seriously shut down hard, as in totally unapproachable, zilch, giving away nothing or next to nothing? So rarely the fingers of a blind carpenter’s hand would do just fine.
Now, as I’m always reminded, a lot of this is, of course, little more than a matter of taste and preference, and, once off the beaten path, generalisations about wine are almost by definition very slippery ground. Nonetheless, I guess the point I’m trying to make here is that, while they certainly can and do undergo very profound transformations as they age, on the whole, “Nebbiolo di montagna” wines seem to me to have a strong tendency to remain relatively more open for business throughout than their famed southern cousins.
Which, assuming the hypothesis is actually true, leads to other interesting questions, but then I’ve just had a gruelling day at work
Fully agree with you - can’t remember ever having a mountain Nebbiolo that would’ve been particularly shut down.
But then again, quite rarely I come across those feared closed Barb/Bar Nebbiolos either. Some might feel a bit brooding and grumpy in that awkward phase between the fruity youth and more savory maturity, but can’t really remember drinking much of those closed Nebbioli. Sure, some might’ve been described as “closed” if these wines were very perfumed and expressive in their youth and then turned more restrained as they aged, but to me, it still is a different thing compared to those wines that have been really actually closed - i.e. giving very little both in the nose and in taste. I’d say all instances of Nebbiolo that I’ve had and have been like that, have been just very mildly corked bottles.
But then again, it’s just maybe because I haven’t tasted enough Nebbiolo. And that’s the reason why I keep buying them and going to Nebbiolo tastings all the time!
OK, now that I’ve guzzled down four bottles of life-saving, iron-rich Bramaterra in a row and no longer hear my death knell beckoning, I’d like to briefly reflect on your last point, Sir, if I may . I agree with you that “closed” is probably often confused with (mildly) corked. Myself, more often than not, I can’t really tell the difference. There is that, but then, at least in my experience, there can also be all sorts of other things going on that are very difficult to pin down. Seems to me a lot of things about wine chemistry remain a mystery, for all kinds of different reasons. For instance, not that I’ve actually checked the calendar or anything , but I have this sneaky feeling that today might be a root day, if only ever so mildly . Be that as it may. As long as we agree that there is actually such a thing as a “closed wine”, and by that we mean, roughly speaking, a wine of some, or even considerable, interest that shows well on release, whereupon it goes into some sort of a deep slumber for x years only to eventually re-emerge in full regalia and ready to mark you for life (such as Beaucastel’s VV, notoriously ), then I think the phenomenon occurs with somewhat greater frequency in Barolo, and possibly a little less frequently with Barbaresco, than it does with “Nebbiolo di montagna”. But even so, like you, I’d wager it’s a lot less frequent than some people seem to think, mostly for reasons mentioned above.
Tell me about your enthusiasm for Grignolino. I can’t recall ever having one (though I must have visiting producers in Piedmont). What do you like about it? Do you age it? Favorite producers?
I tasted Olek Bondonio’s grignolino in his cellar (Barbaresco).
Pelaverga, freisa and ruché are minor grapes too. Others exist in Haut-Piémont (vespolina - or ughetta, uva rara, croatina).
Wow… That’s a lot of questions, not really sure where to start . Let’s just say if you like spicy, translucent, perfumed, savoury wines that can be both relatively light and kind of intense at the same time, Grignolino might be worth exploring. Also, it’s a really well-behaved grape variety which never seeks to dominate, so it tends to go really well with many different types of food. Some (not many) are made with an eye to ageing, but most are consumed young. I’ve had bottles that were 30-40 years old, but generally drink most Grignolino in the 3-10 range. As for specific producers, whatever you do, you can hardly go wrong. Luckily, there is virtually no such thing as “spoofed Grignolino”. Since it’s not very fashionable these days, there isn’t really much of a financial incentive, so most producers that still bother to grow it work more or less along traditional lines and, as a result, produce very drinkable wines.
I’ve only had Crivelli grignolino and it’s marketed as a red wine that drinks like a white wine. The body of like pinot grigio in a way, but had red fruit flavor.
Back to 2017 Massolino VR Riserva. Anyone had it recently? Still soft, or firming up? At half the price of the 2016 I’m curious. And Galloni rated it higher. What gives?
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