I like Collin quite a bit and, as usual, enjoyed the bottle you brought in to 63 Clinton.
But I don’t find Collin to stand out as much from a number of other growers that I enjoy as well. Collin’s pricing isn’t for me to comment on, but for under $100 wines that I enjoy just as much:
Doyard’s Les Vendemiare. $70 in Oregon but $50 in NYC.
Lassaigne’s Les Cotet. Harder to source these days but sub-$100.
Agraparte. Easy to go over $100, but the Sept Crus and Terroirs are both dynamite.
I like the stoniness of Collin and wouldn’t want to drop Collin from my rotation, but to me they have plenty of peers. All taste is subjective, so I completely understand preferring Collin to the wines I listed as well.
I don’t think a substitute was asked for, but rather producers doing as good a work as Collin.
Most grower producers are somewhat unique, but for my palate L-B is as good as Collin if not a substitute. That said, the better wines have passed $100 in Oregon, though the Longitude and Latitude remain excellent wines.
This is pretty spectacular prevarication. The Maillons rose is consistently Collin’s most controversial (and I would argue far and away worst) wine. You’re suggesting that William rates Larmandier-Bernier and Collin about the same on the basis that one vintage of Collin’s worst wine and one of Larmandier-Bernier’s best are rated about the same. That’s just bad faith. Looking at the reviews in toto, William has consistently scored Collin much higher, and has given two of them 100 points in the two most recent vintages. The highest score any Larmandier-Bernier wine has received is 97, and the more recent vintages are at a very good but not Collin level 94/95/96. I’m not a particularly big believer in scores, but you brought them up and you’re wrong.
I don’t mind some green or herbal in my Chablis either, but green notes in Champagne are definitely unwelcome and are consistently both a pejorative and a sign of underripe grapes (which often plague big houses in cooler years when they have to source grapes of poorer quality).
greg i suppose you win. more ulysse collin for you. if you want i have some les roises and enfers to sell you for 1k per bottle. friendly discount too, if you prefer in bulk…
I honestly forget, did I bring the Maillons to 63 Clinton? I don’t recall.
Of the wines you mention:
I buy Agrapart every year, I think he’s one of the 5 best winemakers in Champagne, so I quite agree! But his Mineral and Avizoise have passed $100 some time ago. The Terroirs is a very good wine (and I love it in large format), but it lacks the complexity of the higher end wines.
Lassaigne’s Le Cotet is a very different beast to me, very lean. The Clos St. Sophie on the other hand is spectacular - I have a bottle of the 2014 on deck for today (someone’s birthday - we’re already a Selosse Rose down ). And has similary to the den
I think Doyard’s Clos del Abbaye has a lot similarity to Collin’s Enfers, but that’s also quite a bit more than $100 at this point.
I also agree that there are palate preferences in play here - there are many good Champagne producers and Collin certainly isn’t going to be at the top of everyone’s list. But I also think it’s very disingenuous to suggest that there are many alternatives to Collin under $100. Though then again, Michael’s entire post was in bad faith, so there’s no reason to take it very seriously.
I think this is key. There’s just so much quality grower Champagne these days that it can’t be too hard to find something that’s cheaper than Ulysses Collin and suited to one’s taste, even if it isn’t a direct substitute. Agrapart, to your point, I particularly prefer
We absolutely can, but his posts about William rating Collin and Larmandier-Bernier the same based on the rose is just a bad faith argument. You have to very carefully cherry pick specific wines to even find wines rated the same. No one was even talking about the rose here, and it’s not at all the wine from which Olivier’s reputation derives.
Yes, but the $100 threshold isn’t really in good faith either. The latest offer I got for the 2014 Les Enfers and 2015 Les Roises was $1,000 (only $850 for the 2014 Les Roises and 2015 Les Enfers). At those prices, it’s not that hard to find a suitable substitute.
The Doyard Clos l’Abbaye isn’t that much more than $100. The 2014 can be had for $105 and the 2016 for $100 ($120 might be more generally accessible). The Lumieres is quite a bit more (around $300 for the 2008).
Except that the $100 threshold wasn’t Greg’s. M. Ristev stated that “there are way too many other options for quality grower champagne under $100 that fit the bill” and Greg asked which ones. He never said that Collin’s wines were under $100.
For me, there is no other grower champagne that has stunned me as much as the best Ulysse Collin I have had. There is something different and special and amazing, which I mean in its literal sense, not as a generalized hyperbole.
Not everyone will share this impression, or love the style in the same way of course. But I believe that it is always style that makes the difference between the extraordinary and the merely excellent. Between 97 and 100 points, if you prefer that scale. A je ne sais quoi, an element of magic. I don’t have the words for it. I don’t know if anyone does - maybe the poets and the saints, those who can come close to describing love or the divine. But that last leap into the realm of sublime will always come from character or personality, and strong character at that, which almost certainly means it won’t be for everyone.
The entire Ulysse Collin debate is fascinating. I have the utmost respect for Sarah, Greg’s and William’s palates but I just don’t have the same association with Ulysse Collin, I remember them from 10 or so years ago as nice ~$70 Dressner wines. The Rose was a good, less expensive alternative to Selosse which I love but nowhere near the same league. I opened one of the Blancs recently that I had in the cellar for 10 years or so and it was dead. I do see them around on restaurant lists for much less than retail so I will give them another try. i was at Ssam bar last weekend and they had these on offer:
Ulysse Collin Les Maillons BdN Champagne, FR 2015 300
Ulysse Collin Les Enfers BdB Extra Brut Champagne, FR 2014 350
Greg / Sarah - what should I try from these two or others?
Robert Dentice Collin’s wine took a big step up in quality around the 2014 vintage. Those from 10 years ago were not as good. And the more recent work he’s been doing with longer time on lees is also making a big difference. My favorite cuvée is Les Roises. To me, it has the most personality and the exotic ginger signature I love so much. Of those two, the Enfers is likely the better wine but the Maillons could be drinking better. I haven’t had the 2014 Enfers lately.
I’ll open a Les Roises next time we get together.
The 2014 Roises with 60 months sur latte is extraordinary and has been my personal favorite among all wines tried. The 48 month (2014 and 2015 - I think I have the years right) have also been fabulous. 2016 Maillons my personal favorite of the recent releases of that wine.
Robert, the front label with no indication of lies aging is I believe 3 years. Then he specially has put 48 and 60 expressly on the late release bottlings. None of this may be indicated though on a wine list unless they include that detail.
Sitting poolside right now and crushing my last bottle from a case of the base 2016 roises 48-month. It’s been variable - some are like a really great white burgundy and some are boring - but this bottle is good. Solid buy at $226. However, it is totally overmatched by the Savart haut couture le mesnil next to it. Savart was slightly more at release. At secondary market pricing, it’s no match. YMMV.
Alex
greg i suppose you win. more ulysse collin for you. if you want i have some les roises and enfers to sell you for 1k per bottle. friendly discount too, if you prefer in bulk…
). And has similary to the den