TN: 2012 Ridge Lytton Petite Sirah - A Ridge I do NOT like

WINE TALK
21

I like 15-20 years of bottle age on PS.

Two words: Devil’s Hill

22

I thought 2007 was the last Devil’s Hill bottling.

23

I would pretty much agree w/ that idea across the board, Larry. But it’s a bit of a crap shoot w/ PS. Sometimes they really shine, evolve into something very good. Othertimes, not.
I sorta go by the reputation of the producer if it will develop into something very good. Which is why I stick w/ the Ridge LS PS. Their track record.


I tried the '12 at a Rhone Rangers event and found it ‘interesting’ - is it one of the best young PS’s I’ve had? Heck no - but I did find that it had some interesting components and I’ll be laying some down for a few years to see how they develop.

“Interesting” is probably a pretty good descriptor. They’re unlike most other Calif PS. I’ve hopes, based on the Ridge track record, that they’ll develop into something more than just “interesting”.

Also curious to ask Tom and others - those ‘legendary’ PS’s of the past - when did folks find them ‘legendary’? After how many years in bottle?Cheers

Legendary PS of the '70’s: Ridge YC '71/'73/'75/'77 come to mind. MtVeeder PS '75 from Marston vnyd on HowellMtn, CarnerosCreek PS '75 Marston vnyd.
FreemarkAbbey YorkCreek '71/'75. David Bruce MaryCarterVnyd '70/'71. All were big/black/extracted PS’s that didn’t really start to show much than huge fruit
until about 10 yrs out or so. I remember being blown away by the Ridge YC '71 for its intensity & extraction. I last had it at 25 yrs of age and was blown away
by how great it had become. OTOH, the DavidBruce’s were already cracking up from the alcohols in the early '80’s. Go figure.
Tom

24

And that will be getting just about right in another decade or so.

25

Ridge did both a Devil’sHill and a DynamiteHill, two different blocks, from YC vnyd.
Tom

26

John,
Clueless on that question…or if they even looked at it. Most of the PS vnyds in Calif are Duriff. Only a small amount are Peloursin or mixed, to my knowledge.

I recall the Concannon’s from the '70’s-'80’s as being pretty good. But I think they got a lot of barrel age before release as they never
seemed particularly big & powerful.
Tom

27

The Turleys are also very/very good. Other good ones are JCCellars/VincentArroyo/JacobFranklin.

Tom Hill expressing preferences for PS is like Tom Hill expressing opinions on CDP. If you don’t like the wines, how can you have a valid preference. Awww, just kidding Tom, Mostly.
I do think that if you are not really a fan of the variety, it is easy to prefer the Starbucks approach; roast the hell out of the grapes until no-one can tell if it’s PS or syrah. Robert Foley is the king of this approach. Turley, JC Cellars, and Jacob Franklin are in that camp IMHO.
If you are interested in medium-light roast “let the real flavors remain”, try Rutherford Grove, Madrigal, Rockland (not sure Rockland is still in existence), Stags Leap Winery (Standing Stag). I used to like Arroyo but methinks Vince started going heavy on the oak and oak is strangely dill and green-olive flavored.
Disclaimer of sorts; I have tons of old Ridge PS in my cellar dating back to 1985, all York Creek of course, and most of them (95%), have not aged into beauties. They are less harsh, but they also have subdued fruit and dominant tea-leaf tannins and are still not all that much fun to drink. So I add that just to admit that in many respects I agree with Tom who usually says, “you gotta kiss a whole lot of frogs before you find a prince”. For whatever it’s worth, buy the ones I recc above and drink 'em 5-10 years out.

28

My favorite producer of PS is Carlisle. Cedarville also makes a fine PS from the Naylor Vineyard up in Eldorado-their only non-estate wine.

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Petite Sirah is the common Duriff grape and I find it chalky, and yes it can age for a long time but I see no evolution.

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Would anyone (Tom, Glenn?) care to articulate what happens to good Petite Sirah as it ages? I have heard many people say, for example, that the '71 Ridge YC is legendary, mind-blowing perfection…but never a descriptor. How is it different from its youthful self?

31

I want to also suggest the PS from Switchback. The last two vintages were a dream early on and I’m hoping will do well after 15+ in storage. The one thing this discussion has done is made me want to see how off-putting the Ridge PS can be as I have yet to drink one.

32

My tasting note from 2004…

1971 Ridge York Creek Petite Sirah
Let’s get this all out in the open right now. I have known since I joined the group in 1998 that a member had several bottles of this in his temperature-controlled storage. I had seen them there and made subtle and not so subtle hints that I would love to taste or buy, steal, trade, barter, sell my soul, etc. for a bottle. So it finally comes out. All I can say is holy ^&*(#$%&(#@$!!! This wine is huge and tastes like it’s five years old, not 33. It’s incredibly dark, with very primary aromatics that include all the black cherry, pepper and earth that I’ve described before (and that shows a great consistency in these wines) but also some of the butter and cassis and plum as well. This is so rich and ripe. Wow, wow, wow. Drink this now and over the next millennium. Amazing wine that lives up to its legendary status. Great wine plus great storage makes magic!

33

Interesting comments about this variety, and interesting to see some falling in love with newer producers.

I think the variety has an identity crisis. it is normally a blender, and when bottled on its own, tends to learn towards the tannic, unforgiving qualities the variety can possess. One of the biggest problems with the variety IMHO is that it’s often planted in areas that simply do not allow it to get ripe enough, and winemakers are ‘forced’ to pick at a time when the tannins are still monstrous.

I like Tom’s suggestion of Jaffurs - year in and year out is in one of the 5 best PSs in CA, and for QPR purposes, it might be the ‘best’. It has the unique quality of being approachable young, but definitely benefits from a good dose of bottle aging.

Can the variety evolve, as Leonard doesn’t think it can? The answer is, of course, that it depends upon the starting materials and how they’re handled. The variety definitely can evolved, and Ridge, Stags Leap, and even Carlisle are examples of that,. Does it oftentimes NOT evolve from a ‘hard as nails’ young wine? Yes . . . but that’s true of other varieties as well.

Just my $.03 this afternoon . . .

Cheers!

34

Ask & you shall receive, Paul. These are my notes from the BipinDesai tasting in Jan 1999 out in LA:

35

Doh…how could I have forgot the Carlisles??
I’ve, several times, in my TN’s, compared the Carlisle to the legendary Ridge YC '71 in its youth. FWIW.
Tom

36

Here’s an interesting question as it relates to this thread and perhaps PS in general - how many folks drink their PS’s with this little bottle age (or basically none)? Just curious because to me, this is a variety that shines with at least a few years of bottle age.

I agree with this as well.

And Ridge has never been shy about high alcohol levels. Some wines are low, but many others are well over 14.5%.

37

Awwwww, Mitch. Apples & oranges. I do like PS…when it’s good. And I taste a fair number of them. I just find “ya gotta kiss a lotta frogs…”. And, sometimes that frog you’re sure is
gonna turn into a prince turns out to be a toad and you just get nothing but warts.

I do think that if you are not really a fan of the variety, it is easy to prefer the Starbucks approach; roast the hell out of the grapes until no-one can tell if it’s PS or syrah. Robert Foley is the king of this approach. Turley, JC Cellars, and Jacob Franklin are in that camp IMHO.
.

AuContraire, MonsieurTallen. JCCllrs…yeah. But I would not put the (current) Turleys or JacobFranklins in the “roast the hell” camp.

Tom

38

My MiL used to work in the tasting room at Field Stone in Alexander Valley, and their flagship wine is a reserve petite made from pre-prohibition vines. From my experience, it does tend to be weighty and dark, but it also has a nice spiciness to it, and I’ve not found it flabby.

A few years ago, they had a library release, and we picked up bottles from a variety of vintages - 1978 (their first release), 1984, 1991, 1997. As we’ve opened them, my impression has generally been that they are lively and tasty (sometimes a little funky) but also unevolved, aside from a brown tinge to the color.

I don’t gravitate towards PS in general due to so many being roasted and/or flabby, but I’ve liked Field Stone’s rendition, and I have also enjoyed a couple of Larry’s Tercero petites in recent years (in a more polished style).

39

Rockland. Now there’s a winery you don’t hear much about anymore. Perhaps Tom can fill us in, since I am sure he followed them from the very start. [snort.gif] I’ve always liked them, but they were tough to find.

8-10 years works well for me: enough years to soften the harsh tannins, but young enough to still have the brawny fruit.

40

Sorry, Markus…big fail here. I, of course, did follow them from the very start. Had a few of them early on and liked them, though they
were pretty rugged PS’s. Best I can tell from Google, they’re no longer in business. Went out somewhere in the mid-late '90’s best I can tell.
Tom