TN: 2009 Francois Bertheau Chambolle Musigny Les Amoureuses

[Berry_Crawford]

@Charlie Gierling

For those whoe care where the vineyard is: Weinlagen

I think that map is incorrect

[dcornutt]

@Berry Crawford

@Charlie Gierling

For those whoe care where the vineyard is: Weinlagen

I think that map is incorrect

Yes and no.
That portion of village property is a named vineyard Iieu-dit called les amoureuses but it is not the premier cru portion known as Les Amoureuses which is closer to Musigny.

[dcornutt]

Here is Musigny which give you an idea of the location of Les Amoureuses. That building below Musigny is the Clos Vougeot.

Weinlagen

On the Northern 1/3 of Musigny, Les Amoureuses lies directly to the east.

[Lewis_Dawson]

http://www.vinotopia.be/maps/

Click on the link for Chambolle-Musigny…

[Charlie_Gierling]

Right, thanks a lot for this hint!
Strange, so there are two vineyards with the same name in the same village???

[dcornutt]

Charlie,
No one would really talk about that lieu-dit near the town if they discuss Les Amoureuses. They would be talking about the 1er cru vineyard to the South of that. BIG difference between the two. Almost as big as you can imagine.

[Joel_Deutsch]

Brian, I had the 85 Bertheau Amoureuses, and the 90 also, within the last two years. They were both drinking great although the 85 was as good as it will get. I believe that the 90 will still be fine in a few years if you wanted to wait.

[Berry_Crawford]

@Charlie Gierling

Right, thanks a lot for this hint!
Strange, so there are two vineyards with the same name in the same village???

I think it is important to contrast the different between a “lieu-dit” and a formal vineyard. A vineyard is the entity that is classified premier cru or grand cru. A lieu-dit is a more granularly delineated named section of vines. A 1er or grand cru vineyard can have more than one lieu-dit and a lieu-dit can span multiple contiguous 1er or grand cru vineyards . There can even be cases were part of a lieu-dit is classified as part of a 1er or grand cru vineyard and part of it classified as village. So its possible that a single village can have a 1er or grand cru vineyard with one name and another unrelated ieu-dit with the same name. In this case it is a bit strange. There is a famous Les Amoureuses 1er vineyard and then as I look at a few maps some show a totally disconnected Les Amoureuses lieu-dit area classified as village level right above the Derriere le Four lieu-diet and some maps* do not. Weird.

*As an example, I’m looking at the one in Inside Burgundy by Jasper Morris and it doesn’t show the village level Les Amoureuses lieu-dit but the Google Earth overlay map from vinotopia does.

[Claude_Kolm]

@Tom Blach

Simply that at least in some hands-Drouhin, Mugnier and possibly Bertheau though not Vogue-it is seductive when new to an extent it never really regains;though my experience, while not negligible, is fast becoming historic as the price has made wines from this vineyard completely inaccessible and things may of course be changing.

I’ve not had that experience with Drouhin, Tom. I find that at 20+ years, the wines can be magical (good as they are very young), and Roumier ages just beautifully, too. Christophe Roumier long ago told me that Amoureuses is a wine that comes around early but that can last a very long time, and that’s been my experience, too.

[Tom_Blach]

I was just about to post something to that effect, Claude. The non-young Amoureuses I’ve had have simply not been old enough, I suspect; though I do have the feeling that it may be at its most individual when young. As with all things Burgundy, though, it’s just a question of what you open. I’ve probably opened more than many since it’s the only wine that really absorbs me but like all amateurs I can only ever drink a drop in the ocean.
With Mugnier’s grander wines I do find myself sometimes asking if they ever come around after losing their initial seductiveness, but I’m sure that as ever time works its magic.

[Tom_Blach]

@Brady Daniels

@Tom Blach

Sounds good. There is a very strong argument for drinking Amoureuses when young, though a teenaged Jadot 98 at lunch today was lovely.

Tom, that 1998 was lovely!

Don’t you think you might be making the same mistake as Parker/Jayer? They claim that a burg should be balanced and drink well young to be a candidate for aging, which Faiveley and Gouges seem to refute. It seems you are making the opposite claim. If a wine drinks well young, then it won’t age. Yet, I suspect that Jadot had plenty of miles left.

I wish it were so simple! (Well, not really)

Anyway, I tend to overweight Chambolle in my purchases due to its accessibility and my lack of older bottles. But I sure hope they can age well.

Brady, I was referring only to Amoureuses. The wines of Chambolle are for ageing, of course.

[Charlie_Gierling]

Thanks again for the explanations. That’s worse than Germany! Difficult to put on a map.
Does the lieux-dit in this case ever appear on a label?

[dcornutt]

@Charlie Gierling

Thanks again for the explanations. That’s worse than Germany! Difficult to put on a map.
Does the lieux-dit in this case ever appear on a label?

It can if the place is such an important one that it deserves recognition. Examples abound in Meursault where there are no Grand Cru wines and village lieux-dits like Clos de la Barre etc abound.
I personally have never seen a Chambolle with a village lieu-dit designation from a producer.

[Joe_D]

@dcornutt

I personally have never seen a Chambolle with a village lieu-dit designation from a producer.

Patrice Rion “Cras”, Anne Gros “Combe d’Orveaux”, Raphet “Bussieres” are three that I have seen. Two of those are split vineyards with 1er cru sections, not sure about Bussieres but I think not.

[dcornutt]

@Joe D

@dcornutt

I personally have never seen a Chambolle with a village lieu-dit designation from a producer.

Patrice Rion “Cras”, Anne Gros “Combe d’Orveaux”, Raphet “Bussieres” are three that I have seen. Two of those are split vineyards with 1er cru sections, not sure about Bussieres but I think not.

Thanks Joe.
I have seen the Anne Gros. The others I haven’t.
Also looks like I need to do a little studying here. There are several including Guyon and Amiot-Servelle that make village chambolle wines with lieu-dit designations.

[Nick_Gangas]

I believe Grivot makes one also.

[C_0_R_E_Y_M]

@dcornutt

@Joe D

@dcornutt

I personally have never seen a Chambolle with a village lieu-dit designation from a producer.

Patrice Rion “Cras”, Anne Gros “Combe d’Orveaux”, Raphet “Bussieres” are three that I have seen. Two of those are split vineyards with 1er cru sections, not sure about Bussieres but I think not.

Thanks Joe.
I have seen the Anne Gros. The others I haven’t.
Also looks like I need to do a little studying here. There are several including Guyon and Amiot-Servelle that make village chambolle wines with lieu-dit designations.

Another one: Daniel Rion makes a Chambolle Beaux Bruns.

[Charlie_Gierling]

Thanks again for the info.
I understand if there is a vineyard split into a part that is a 1 cru and another part that is only lieux dit. But in case of Les Amoureuses these are two totally different vineyards. So here’s my question: which of these two variants would you consider better?

1. Weinlagen. Meaning that you see the two vineyards, but under the same name. The disadvantage here is that you do not know which is which.
2. put two distinct vineyards on the map with two disctings names ( “Les Amoureuses” and “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru”). Here the disadvantage is, that the name of the 1er Cru vineyard is actually “Les Amoureuses” and not “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru”. “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru” is the name of apellation or the wine.

[Berry_Crawford]

@Charlie Gierling

Thanks again for the info.
I understand if there is a vineyard split into a part that is a 1 cru and another part that is only lieux dit. But in case of Les Amoureuses these are two totally different vineyards. So here’s my question: which of these two variants would you consider better?

1. Weinlagen. Meaning that you see the two vineyards, but under the same name. The disadvantage here is that you do not know which is which.
2. put two distinct vineyards on the map with two disctings names ( “Les Amoureuses” and “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru”). Here the disadvantage is, that the name of the 1er Cru vineyard is actually “Les Amoureuses” and not “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru”. “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru” is the name of apellation or the wine.

Here is the confusing part: “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru” is not an appellation. In burgundy you have these levels of appellations:

Regional
Village
Grand Cru

“Bourgogne”, “Chambolle Musigny” and “Chambertin Grand Cru” are all three appellations but “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru” is not. The appellation for “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru” is the village (Chambolle-Musigny). “Les Amoureuses 1er Cru” is a vineyard in that village that is deemed to be given special recognition.

I know that doesn’t really answer your question but I’m just pointing that out so we can all use the right terminology. (Sorry if I am being pedantic)

To answer your question more directly its actually a moot point as the local authorities are very unlikely to allow the addition of a lieux dit on a label that would confuse the consumer in this manner. Not so much out of the goodness of their hearts (they don’t seem to worry about confusing us) but rather other growers are extremely uptight and possessive about the vines they own. Owners of Les Amoureuses would not allow a Chambolle village wine to state “Les Amoureuses”. Seriously, they would be furious and it would go to court first.

I think there is zero possibility that one would see a Chambolle village labeled “Les Amoureuses”. Of course burgudny is a weird place and I could be wrong but id be shocked.

[Lewis_Dawson]

Berry, there is no appellation specifically for the 1er cru Les Amoureuses, as you point out, but there is an appellation for the 24 (approx.) premier crus of Chambolle-Musigny collectively. Check the label of a bottle of Les Amourouses… it will say “Appellation Chambolle-Musigny Premier Cru Controlee”. A grower with vines in the village plot known as Les Amoureuses, if he elected to put the lieu dit name on the label, would have to use smaller typeface for the lieu dit, and would say “Appellation Chambolle-Musigny Controlee”.

As for whether a grower would do that, well just read the posts above for several examples of just exactly that, wines that are in the marketplace. For example…

Anne Gros
Combe d’Orveaux
Appellation Chambolle-Musigny Controlee
Bruno Clavelier
Combe d’Orveaux
Appellation Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Controlee