TN: 2007 Joh. Jos. Prüm Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Kabinett

[Y_U_R_A_N_S]

Totally agree with Brian’s tasting notes on JJP here. I do not see myself as a acid freak, but I usually find JJP’s bottle with age to be soft, lacking backbone and acidity. Subjectively, the acidity is just not there to balance out the sweetness, and it’s tropical profile fruit. If we wanna judge a wine by how fast it’s comsumed and even leaving it unfinished, JJP’s has been consistently been that bottle in my tasting groups over several years. And the reason is always the same, it is palate tiring. Besides acid, I found minerality is also consistently missing, and there is not much left to balance out the fruit.

The 05 WS spatlese I opened recently also showed flabby palate with tropical fruit but no tension at all, not sure if I would call it a balanced wine. Besides BA and TBA, I only found JJP to have significantly better acidity and quality at the auction level (spatlese and auslese), but the regular bottlings are just ok wines. And of course, it is subjective.

[David_Bu3ker]

Ooh…full on JJ Prüm backlash! Now we have a Berserkers thread!

[Ian_S]

I do not see myself as a acid freak, but …

I’m certain bad drivers don’t see themselves as bad drivers either.

Why is it when someone follows a statement with “but”, they always then proceed to contradict themselves.

[Jayson_Cohen]

I like acid but find the negative comments about Prum strange. That is not a contradiction. It’s quite easy to tell that generally the acid integrates beautifully in the wines and holding the wine in one’s mouth for a bit longer than normal confirms there is plenty there. That’s what I also do to gauge acidity when a wine with RS is young or still has baby fat.

I admit I haven’t had a 2007 Prum since release. 2005 Spatlese and 2002 Auslese were examples this year of beautifully integrated wines with plenty of acid and just enough dry extract. The style is not meant to have bracing, poky acidity.

I don’t think Prum should be held to a higher standard than other wineries in the MSR with strong reputations. I don’t recall an aged bottle that could not hold its own and shine at the table with other usual Mosel suspects like Schaefer and pre-Eymael JJ Christoffel, growers who in my mind tend to have slightly higher tension. They all have a different style, each of which is thrilling.

What I have seen people call soft are bottles that had clearly been mistreated at some point (i.e., cooked) and are therefore showing the generic marshmallow, apple saucy signs of rapid development and oxidation.

[John_Morris]

Totally agree with Brian’s tasting notes on JJP here. I do not see myself as a acid freak, but I usually find JJP’s bottle with age to be soft, lacking backbone and acidity. Subjectively, the acidity is just not there to balance out the sweetness, and it’s tropical profile fruit. If we wanna judge a wine by how fast it’s comsumed and even leaving it unfinished, JJP’s has been consistently been that bottle in my tasting groups over several years. And the reason is always the same, it is palate tiring. Besides acid, I found minerality is also consistently missing, and there is not much left to balance out the fruit.

The 05 WS spatlese I opened recently also showed flabby palate with tropical fruit but no tension at all, not sure if I would call it a balanced wine. Besides BA and TBA, I only found JJP to have significantly better acidity and quality at the auction level (spatlese and auslese), but the regular bottlings are just ok wines. And of course, it is subjective.

Other old ones you’ve found flabby? I’ve often found that the sweetness dominates when they are young (I’m thinking Kabinett through Auslese), and in blind tastings of new releases, the Prums often come across as a bit one-dimensional and often don’t rank that high. But I’ve had so many spectacular old Prums that I maintain the faith. (Case in point: a 98 Wehlener Auslese two weeks ago. Stupendous!)

[DanielP]

I prefer my wine when the acid doesn’t come to my mind one way or another. I don’t want to be thinking, “wow this is acidic” or “wow this needs more acid.” I tend to focus on the flavors and texture. Of course, as I evaluate a wine, I do try and think about the acid then, but it’s a conscious decision. I don’t want it to come to mind when I take that first happy sip.

I would say I feel the same way about tannins, in that I don’t want it to dominate my impression one way or another. Some people seem to really crave a strong acidic streak, but we far more infrequently see people crave intense tannins.

[David_Bu3ker]

I prefer my wine when the acid doesn’t come to my mind one way or another. I don’t want to be thinking, “wow this is acidic” or “wow this needs more acid.” I tend to focus on the flavors and texture. Of course, as I evaluate a wine, I do try and think about the acid then, but it’s a conscious decision. I don’t want it to come to mind when I take that first happy sip.

I would say I feel the same way about tannins, in that I don’t want it to dominate my impression one way or another. Some people seem to really crave a strong acidic streak, but we far more infrequently see people crave intense tannins.

[A_Gillette]

Totally agree with Brian’s tasting notes on JJP here. I do not see myself as a acid freak, but I usually find JJP’s bottle with age to be soft, lacking backbone and acidity. Subjectively, the acidity is just not there to balance out the sweetness, and it’s tropical profile fruit. If we wanna judge a wine by how fast it’s comsumed and even leaving it unfinished, JJP’s has been consistently been that bottle in my tasting groups over several years. And the reason is always the same, it is palate tiring. Besides acid, I found minerality is also consistently missing, and there is not much left to balance out the fruit.

The 05 WS spatlese I opened recently also showed flabby palate with tropical fruit but no tension at all, not sure if I would call it a balanced wine. Besides BA and TBA, I only found JJP to have significantly better acidity and quality at the auction level (spatlese and auslese), but the regular bottlings are just ok wines. And of course, it is subjective.

What Mosel producers do you enjoy?

[G_Curd]

I prefer my wine when the acid doesn’t come to my mind one way or another. I don’t want to be thinking, “wow this is acidic” or “wow this needs more acid.” I tend to focus on the flavors and texture. Of course, as I evaluate a wine, I do try and think about the acid then, but it’s a conscious decision. I don’t want it to come to mind when I take that first happy sip.

I would say I feel the same way about tannins, in that I don’t want it to dominate my impression one way or another. Some people seem to really crave a strong acidic streak, but we far more infrequently see people crave intense tannins.

That’s a great way to say it Daniel. I feel the same way.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

I prefer my wine when the acid doesn’t come to my mind one way or another. I don’t want to be thinking, “wow this is acidic” or “wow this needs more acid.” I tend to focus on the flavors and texture. Of course, as I evaluate a wine, I do try and think about the acid then, but it’s a conscious decision. I don’t want it to come to mind when I take that first happy sip.

I would say I feel the same way about tannins, in that I don’t want it to dominate my impression one way or another. Some people seem to really crave a strong acidic streak, but we far more infrequently see people crave intense tannins.

That’s a great way to say it Daniel. I feel the same way.

Agreed; that was very well-stated, Daniel. AND – I promise – I won’t even denigrate you for your preferences, despite them differing from mine.

I am not one bit ashamed of, nor do I hide or shirk from, my preference for high-acid wines. I like high acidity in sweet wines because they otherwise (usually) come across as cloying, soft, boring, or flabby; even when they don’t, I usually believe I would like them more with more acidity. Of course, my preference for high acid wines shouldn’t be surprising given some of my other preferences:
– I love coffee, but drink it black. I never buy dark roast, and strongly prefer light roasts above all others. Light roasts are the most acidic, everything else being equal.
– I have a salt tooth, not a sweet tooth.
– Grapefruit may be my favorite fruit; when I was young I would sprinkle a little sugar on it, but, starting in my early teens, I’d simply eat it like an orange.
– I’ve loved sour beers since I first discovered them about 15 years ago
– I love vinegar. When I was still in elementary school, my preferred salad dressing was simply rice vinegar. I still do the same these days, but will mix it up (most frequently olive oil and balsamic, or some kind of Italian). I generally like pickled veggies, for the same reason.
– Zurek is one of my favorite soups — you guessed it, it’s sour. Same with sour beatroot soup.

Sour/acid isn’t for everyone, but it’s not wrong to like it! And, after all, it’s differences of opinion that help make this hobby so interesting — if everyone agreed: snoozefest!

So, with that having been said, anyone who’s looking to unload some of their horrific 2010 or 2015 Rieslings – you know where you can do that.

[Jay_Miller]

Given that I recently purchased a 6 pack of this without trying it before I’m a touch concerned but will hope that it’s just a phase.

I certainly find disappointment with older Prums in general to be puzzling as they’ve been among my finest riesling experiences. Which is why I was willing to take the risk on that 6 pack. And 2007s are still young, but I recall that I was a touch skeptical of the vintage on release and didn’t buy any.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Given that I recently purchased a 6 pack of this without trying it before I’m a touch concerned but will hope that it’s just a phase.

I certainly find disappointment with older Prums in general to be puzzling as they’ve been among my finest riesling experiences. Which is why I was willing to take the risk on that 6 pack. And 2007s are still young, but I recall that I was a touch skeptical of the vintage on release and didn’t buy any.

If you have one and don’t like it I’m sure you can quickly and easily get your money back.

[maureen_nelson]

Query whether what causes some to complain about the softness of some Prum wines isn’t the creamy side of wehlener sonnenuhr. I often find the ws wines from prum to seem a little less “crisp” than their counterparts from grach.

[G_Curd]

I prefer my wine when the acid doesn’t come to my mind one way or another. I don’t want to be thinking, “wow this is acidic” or “wow this needs more acid.” I tend to focus on the flavors and texture. Of course, as I evaluate a wine, I do try and think about the acid then, but it’s a conscious decision. I don’t want it to come to mind when I take that first happy sip.

I would say I feel the same way about tannins, in that I don’t want it to dominate my impression one way or another. Some people seem to really crave a strong acidic streak, but we far more infrequently see people crave intense tannins.

That’s a great way to say it Daniel. I feel the same way.

Agreed; that was very well-stated, Daniel. AND – I promise – I won’t even denigrate you for your preferences, despite them differing from mine.

I am not one bit ashamed of, nor do I hide or shirk from, my preference for high-acid wines. I like high acidity in sweet wines because they otherwise (usually) come across as cloying, soft, boring, or flabby; even when they don’t, I usually believe I would like them more with more acidity. Of course, my preference for high acid wines shouldn’t be surprising given some of my other preferences:
– I love coffee, but drink it black. I never buy dark roast, and strongly prefer light roasts above all others. Light roasts are the most acidic, everything else being equal.
– I have a salt tooth, not a sweet tooth.
– Grapefruit may be my favorite fruit; when I was young I would sprinkle a little sugar on it, but, starting in my early teens, I’d simply eat it like an orange.
– I’ve loved sour beers since I first discovered them about 15 years ago
– I love vinegar. When I was still in elementary school, my preferred salad dressing was simply rice vinegar. I still do the same these days, but will mix it up (most frequently olive oil and balsamic, or some kind of Italian). I generally like pickled veggies, for the same reason.
– Zurek is one of my favorite soups — you guessed it, it’s sour. Same with sour beatroot soup.

Sour/acid isn’t for everyone, but it’s not wrong to like it! And, after all, it’s differences of opinion that help make this hobby so interesting — if everyone agreed: snoozefest!

So, with that having been said, anyone who’s looking to unload some of their horrific 2010 or 2015 Rieslings – you know where you can do that.

Well said Brian. My preferences differ from yours, but both are valid in their own right. I probably prefer different vintages to the vintages you prefer, but that doesn’t make an vintage bad, just different strokes for different folks. Drink what you like and then share how you felt. If someone disagrees that ok. We all love wine for our own reasons, but can all share that love for wine together

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Query whether what causes some to complain about the softness of some Prum wines isn’t the creamy side of wehlener sonnenuhr. I often find the ws wines from prum to seem a little less “crisp” than their counterparts from grach.

For me, the answer is “No.” I actually love Prum’s WS, typically, and have always preferred it over the GH. Prum’s WS Auslese is pretty much the standard-bearer for me. This '07 Kabinett, as well as all '03’s I’ve tried, are the exceptions to the general rule that I love Prum.

[DanielP]

I like both high acid and sweet things, so my palate doesn’t need supercharged acid to go with sweet wines. Hell, I liked grapefruit in grade school without sugar.

Our palate differences might be more related to your sensitivity to sugar rather than love of acid.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

I like both high acid and sweet things, so my palate doesn’t need supercharged acid to go with sweet wines. Hell, I liked grapefruit in grade school without sugar.

Our palate differences might be more related to your sensitivity to sugar rather than love of acid.

Possibly. Or, perhaps, my palate may be insensitive to acidity. I dunno.

[Y_U_R_A_N_S]

Totally agree with Brian’s tasting notes on JJP here. I do not see myself as a acid freak, but I usually find JJP’s bottle with age to be soft, lacking backbone and acidity. Subjectively, the acidity is just not there to balance out the sweetness, and it’s tropical profile fruit. If we wanna judge a wine by how fast it’s comsumed and even leaving it unfinished, JJP’s has been consistently been that bottle in my tasting groups over several years. And the reason is always the same, it is palate tiring. Besides acid, I found minerality is also consistently missing, and there is not much left to balance out the fruit.

The 05 WS spatlese I opened recently also showed flabby palate with tropical fruit but no tension at all, not sure if I would call it a balanced wine. Besides BA and TBA, I only found JJP to have significantly better acidity and quality at the auction level (spatlese and auslese), but the regular bottlings are just ok wines. And of course, it is subjective.

What Mosel producers do you enjoy?

I am more into the Kabinett category and my favorites old vine kabs from Falkenstein, Von Volxem, and Julian Haart, though the previous two are from Saar. I also liked the three stars from Markus Molitor quite a bit.

[A_So]

Query whether what causes some to complain about the softness of some Prum wines isn’t the creamy side of wehlener sonnenuhr. I often find the ws wines from prum to seem a little less “crisp” than their counterparts from grach.

Astute observation, I always get a little blue cheese on the WS myself, especially with age.

[Y_U_R_A_N_S]

Query whether what causes some to complain about the softness of some Prum wines isn’t the creamy side of wehlener sonnenuhr. I often find the ws wines from prum to seem a little less “crisp” than their counterparts from grach.

I think that could contribute to my impression. When I did a Markus Molitor Zeltinger Sonnenuhr Aus *** 2013 next to the Wehlener Sonnenuhr Aus *** 2013, I did find Zeltinger to have more lemon zest and depth while WS showed more creaminess.