TN: 2005 La Rioja Alta Gran Reserva 904 (Rioja)

[john_stimson]

@Brad Kane

@Kasey Dubler

I think I’ve had this win 3-4 times in the past year and I would agree with you completely. One other thing I’ve found on the wine is almost a sweet oak or Coconut nose. It settles down after it’s been open for a little, but upon opening it’s almost over powering. I’ve laid a few down and believe it will drink well for another few decades, but it does drink beautiful now too…

Yep. Coconut and/or dill are giveaways for new American oak. I usually find both present in young La Rioja Alta, though usually with more dill dominance, yet in Marques de Murrietta, especially their ygay Gran Reserva bottlings, more of a coconut character that, no matter how old, including vintages like '34 and '59, never really departs.

As a side note, I think those that use the term pickle juice often are just identifying the dill aspect, but sometimes there’s volatile acidity present, in which case pickle juice becomes a catchall, though I prefer highlighting both characteristics as it’s a little more precise.

I was using “pickle juice” as more of a pejorative term for overwhelming dill. Primarily it’s a dill thing, although I’ve had bottles of LRA that tasted like someone soaked a dill pickle in the bottle for 20 minutes before serving. Back in the early 80’s when I was just starting into wine I drank quite a bit of LRA and loved it, and don’t remember dill at all (It was $5-8 a bottle or something like that, and already had a fair amount of age already when it arrived on the shelf.)

[Peter_Kleban]

@Robert Alfert

@Brad England

Robert, curious if you have tried other vintages? I’ve always liked this wine, and when I lived in Europe in the 90’s drank it regularly (probably weekly) when in Spain on business. Had an 04 not too long ago and it reminded me of why I liked it.

I have, and liked the 2004 and 2001.

I used to drink a lot of the other La Rioja Alta cuvees (Ardanza, Arana - one showed too much oak) more regularly but somehow moved away from them going back more to my core choices. Solid values across the board and I was able to get them locally in 375s.

+1 on the 2001, which I drank a few years ago.

I have the impression that there is a lot of bottle variation from this vineyard. Comments?

[Pat_Martin]

@Brad Kane

As a side note, I think those that use the term pickle juice often are just identifying the dill aspect, but sometimes there’s volatile acidity present, in which case pickle juice becomes a catchall, though I prefer highlighting both characteristics as it’s a little more precise.

I concur.

“Vinegar is a liquid consisting of about 5–20% acetic acid (CH3COOH), water, and other trace chemicals, which may include flavorings. The acetic acid is produced by the fermentation of ethanol by acetic acid bacteria.”

“pickles are usually made with a very basic brine of equal parts cider vinegar and water mixed with salt”.

I hear “pickle”, I usually think vinegar, not dill.

Of course, pickle is a broader term as well for preparing and preserving various vegetables and fruits, not just cucumbers.

[Karl_K]

@Brad Kane

@Kasey Dubler

I think I’ve had this win 3-4 times in the past year and I would agree with you completely. One other thing I’ve found on the wine is almost a sweet oak or Coconut nose. It settles down after it’s been open for a little, but upon opening it’s almost over powering. I’ve laid a few down and believe it will drink well for another few decades, but it does drink beautiful now too…

Yep. Coconut and/or dill are giveaways for new American oak. I usually find both present in young La Rioja Alta, though usually with more dill dominance, yet in Marques de Murrietta, especially their ygay Gran Reserva bottlings, more of a coconut character that, no matter how old, including vintages like '34 and '59, never really departs.

As a side note, I think those that use the term pickle juice often are just identifying the dill aspect, but sometimes there’s volatile acidity present, in which case pickle juice becomes a catchall, though I prefer highlighting both characteristics as it’s a little more precise.

Why is it that the dill quality of new American oak shows up so robustly in Rioja, as opposed to say a North Coast Cab with American oak?

Something about Tempranillo?

[Brad_Kane]

@Karl K

@Brad Kane

@Kasey Dubler

I think I’ve had this win 3-4 times in the past year and I would agree with you completely. One other thing I’ve found on the wine is almost a sweet oak or Coconut nose. It settles down after it’s been open for a little, but upon opening it’s almost over powering. I’ve laid a few down and believe it will drink well for another few decades, but it does drink beautiful now too…

Yep. Coconut and/or dill are giveaways for new American oak. I usually find both present in young La Rioja Alta, though usually with more dill dominance, yet in Marques de Murrietta, especially their ygay Gran Reserva bottlings, more of a coconut character that, no matter how old, including vintages like '34 and '59, never really departs.

As a side note, I think those that use the term pickle juice often are just identifying the dill aspect, but sometimes there’s volatile acidity present, in which case pickle juice becomes a catchall, though I prefer highlighting both characteristics as it’s a little more precise.

Why is it that the dill quality of new American oak shows up so robustly in Rioja, as opposed to say a North Coast Cab with American oak?

Something about Tempranillo?

Shows up pretty clearly in Silver Oak and you’ve never heard of “Draper Perfume?”

[Mike_Evans]

@Karl K

@Brad Kane

@Kasey Dubler

I think I’ve had this win 3-4 times in the past year and I would agree with you completely. One other thing I’ve found on the wine is almost a sweet oak or Coconut nose. It settles down after it’s been open for a little, but upon opening it’s almost over powering. I’ve laid a few down and believe it will drink well for another few decades, but it does drink beautiful now too…

Yep. Coconut and/or dill are giveaways for new American oak. I usually find both present in young La Rioja Alta, though usually with more dill dominance, yet in Marques de Murrietta, especially their ygay Gran Reserva bottlings, more of a coconut character that, no matter how old, including vintages like '34 and '59, never really departs.

As a side note, I think those that use the term pickle juice often are just identifying the dill aspect, but sometimes there’s volatile acidity present, in which case pickle juice becomes a catchall, though I prefer highlighting both characteristics as it’s a little more precise.

Why is it that the dill quality of new American oak shows up so robustly in Rioja, as opposed to say a North Coast Cab with American oak?

Something about Tempranillo?

Have you had Silver Oak?

[Mike_Evans]

@Joe W i n o g r a d

I drank the 1995 vintage of the sibling (big brother?) of this wine (the 890) a few weeks ago off a list while in Madrid.

The fruit was bright and fresh still with a bit of balsamic and orange peel but the tannins were quite integrated. While not “mature” in the “aged” sense I found it “mature” in the ready sense.

I can’t say that I understand yet the difference between the 890 and the 904.

I found the 1995 890 to be almost overwhelmed by American oak about a year ago, but with good fruit beneath the wood, and so in need of lots of time.

[Kenny_H]

@John Morris

This thread has both piqued and peaked my interest in pickles.

[Karl_K]

@Brad Kane

@Karl K

Why is it that the dill quality of new American oak shows up so robustly in Rioja, as opposed to say a North Coast Cab with American oak?

Something about Tempranillo?

Shows up pretty clearly in Silver Oak and you’ve never heard of “Draper Perfume?”

Good answers. That’s why I asked!

Have had Silver Oak but not in a long time.

[JeromeHan]

@Karl K

@Brad Kane

@Karl K

Why is it that the dill quality of new American oak shows up so robustly in Rioja, as opposed to say a North Coast Cab with American oak?

Something about Tempranillo?

Shows up pretty clearly in Silver Oak and you’ve never heard of “Draper Perfume?”

Good answers. That’s why I asked!

Have had Silver Oak but not in a long time.

I have heard Silver Oak has made a turn for the better recently.

[Joe_W_i_n_o_g_r_a_d]

@Mike Evans

I found the 1995 890 to be almost overwhelmed by American oak about a year ago, but with good fruit beneath the wood, and so in need of lots of time.

Interesting, Mike, thanks. I have not yet tuned into the difference between all the different regional oak signatures, but consider myself “oak sensitive” and have pushed away any number of glasses with overt oak signatures. In this case, FWIW, I did not notice overt oak in this bottle. I would gladly open a bottle to check (if I had one)

[Robert.A.Jr]

@John Morris

@Corey N.

@Robert Alfert

Oops, just noticed a typo, Corey will have a field day with it. Ugh.

“Peaked” – is what I did when you changed into your biking shorts.

“Piqued” – is when your curiosity is stimulated. When you are curious, you might ask “what?”. So an easy mnemonic is that “que” means “what” Spanish. Of course, that would require you to understand the most rudimentary Spanish, so never mind.

This thread has both piqued and peaked my interest in pickles.

You guys are weak! I cannot believe neither of you found the real Freudian typo!!! Not peaked enuff?

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Robert Alfert

This was a points-chaser purchase. Well, sort of. I got the emailer touting this multi-96 point wine graced by the wine gurus, so my curiosity was peaked. I check on it with the maestros on wine such as this, Senior Counsel Mollen and King of Capital Johnny Morris, and they say something like “look you country bumpkin, just buy this damn thing”. So I grab three.

What am I, chopped liver?

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Robert Alfert

As I clearly noted, I’m no expert in Rioja

Your Spaniard membership card is revoked.

[Robert.A.Jr]

@Keith Levenberg

@Robert Alfert

This was a points-chaser purchase. Well, sort of. I got the emailer touting this multi-96 point wine graced by the wine gurus, so my curiosity was peaked. I check on it with the maestros on wine such as this, Senior Counsel Mollen and King of Capital Johnny Morris, and they say something like “look you country bumpkin, just buy this damn thing”. So I grab three.

What am I, chopped liver?

How was I supposed to know you like Rioja, too? I thought you were more into thin and weedy Chinons and stemmy Northern Rhones like me!

[Robert.A.Jr]

Got stuck in Miami last night, missed all late flights home after a very long mediation, so here I am revisiting the wine on night three (ha, after wearing same clothes two days in a row, nasty). Solid wine. Seems better integrating, picked up some depth, but yes, still a subtle nuance of pickle. It’s a hint, not a detractor. This is a very elegant wine that I am happy to own.

[Craig_G]

@Robert Alfert

Got stuck in Miami last night, missed all late flights home after a very long mediation, so here I am revisiting the wine on night three (ha, after wearing same clothes two days in a row, nasty). Solid wine. Seems better integrating, picked up some depth, but yes, still a subtle nuance of pickle. It’s a hint, not a detractor. This is a very elegant wine that I am happy to own.

Are you sure this pickle thing isn’t a bathing issue?

[Marc_Frontario]

@Neal.Mollen

@Robert Alfert

As I clearly noted, I’m no expert in Rioja, just calling it as I see it. I just checked some of the critics’ reviews, couple suggesting start drinking now, none commenting on big tannins. CT notes are generally in accord. Would not seem that my note is off-kilter, but of course our palates could be totally different. I am sensitive to new oak and alcohol, but not tannins. Zero regrets popping this wine now, paired nicely with a grilled sirloin.

Nothing in the world with drinking them now. Knowing your palate as I do, though, I suspect you will like them a great deal more once they shed some oak and, well, clarify a bit. In 10 year’s time you’ll love the wine.

And pickle juice? I’ve never tasted pickle juice in a rioja

Very surprised to hear this…Vlasic everywhere sir with American oak. Whenever I hear the dill or pickle note I immediately think ‘American Oak.’ I guess for me it’s quite obvious.

U guys remember the great 2001 la rioja ardanza pickle fest? Power To The Pickle! This wine for me was pickle not dill.

I find Ridge cabs tend to harbor quite a bit of this ‘dill’ note in their wine. I used to like them back in the day but I guess they no longer ‘pique’ my interest.


Had to get that in there.

[I_van_de_Laar]

Also guilty for point and status chasing and was sensitive for the #1 position of Wine Enthusiast in combination with a good deal (28 euros) mailed to me…

Normally like Rioja but do not have a lot of experience with them. Could the 904 be discribed as ‘old skool’ or a more modern approach? Drank some Luis canas Seleccion de la familia lately, is this comparable?

[Keith_Levenberg]

There was definitely variation with those 2001 Ardanzas. No pickles in mine.