I asked at Gouges last year, and surprisingly, they always destem and have always done so.
There is a difference between “whole clusters” and “stem inclusion”!
Whole clusters mean the grapes are not destemmed AND almost not crushed, so the fermentation begins inside the berries and CO2 is kept inside for a certain time, leading to a certain foreward fruit expression and more CO2 in the wine (which also prohibits oxidation).
Stem inclusion means the grapes are not (or partially not) destemmed - or the stems are put back later (partially), the latter rarely practiced …
but the grapes are crushed and the fermentation begins with the free running juice.
Seriously - I have had many fine wines with both (or all of) the methods above.
But I have also had wines that were “seriously stemmy” (= too much) - and on the other hand wines that were lacking bite and mouthfeel due to total destemming …
Generally I´m leaning towards (partial) stem inclusion, but I admire Henri Jayer, too … ![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}
… and I also think there is (or should be) no formula for all regions, all grapes and all vintages …
But I´m no winemaker … so I can only rate the finished product …
LOL
Wines can be green without using any whole cluster. I feel when folks do a poor job making wines with whole cluster that grave mistakes were made whether at the pick or at when to press off.
a couple of great winemakers are all in on whole clusters as part of their repertoire in Southern California, Binns and Krankl
cheers
That’s interesting about stems increasing the pH, I’ve not heard that.
For Oregon, in cooler vintages like '07, '10 and '11 it seemed winemakers were using LESS stems on higher acid wines but I’m assuming that’s more about the stem itself being ripe enough?
I’m generally very partial to stem inclusion and accept the fact that even the best wines/producers will have a few wines that are green/bitter. The few vintages it happens are overshadowed by absolutely gorgeous wines.
Another producer who seems to have stems dialed in perfectly is Johan.
The idea that stems increase the pH is certainly ‘theoretically’ correct, but does not mean it happens in each and every situation. Like everything else wine-related, I would say that it depends on a number of factors and therefore should be looked upon as ‘truth’.
The real ‘challenge’ here is that stems do not always ‘add’ the same flavors or aromas - again, it’s just not that simple.
I am all in with stem inclusion, and have been doing all or my reds 100% since 2014, with many of my 2013s also 100%. I stomp the heck out of my grapes when they arrive at the winery - in each 1/2 ton picking bin for about 10 minutes - and then punch down from there. Depending upon the variety, some clusters will make it all the way through fermentation, but many less than one might expect. I am not trying to make ‘carbonic-like’ wines but instead trying to integrate those stems so as to build structure and add another layer of complexity aromatically. Some varieties will show a more distinct additional character from the stems - my 100% carignane, for instance, is only in oak for 10 months and tends to show more of it them my grenaches, which see about 2.5 years in older oak.
It may be easier to compare ‘apple and apples’ when just looking at pinot, but even then, you need to take into account oak treatment, elevate, fermentation temperatures, and so many other factors . . .
Cheers.
Any idea of the percentages that they use - and how this may have changed over time? It was my impression that both did small percentages but not large ones, but I could be wrong.
Cheers.
I’ve used stems in some portion since the very first Siduri vintage (1994) – but at times was pretty cautious about it. On Clos Pepe specifically (since that was part of the discussion), I always used a lot on the Pommard section but less on the 115 (the Pommard seemed to take longer to ripen and thus hung longer and seemed to get more ripe stems). – Right now with my new Clarice Pinot Noir I am doing a good bit of whole cluster (54-58% in the 2017s, more like 83% in the 2018s – longer cooler growing season). In other words, I am a fan, but try and adjust it when necessary based on the vintage, section, etc.
Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company
Larry,
That’s interesting. When I’ve done side by sides (pretty common – I go into a tank with some % of stems, but if I have extra I go into bins and destem that, I can’t think of a time where I haven’t seen an increase in pH with the stem retention. When doesn’t it happen and what leads to that?
Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company
Adam,
What I’ve found is that the pH rise is negligible in some cases, more pronounced in others, and non-existent in others. I ‘base’ this on the fact that I always see a pH increase from the moment that the grapes arrive until primary fermentation is complete. I run numbers when the grapes arrive, after a few days of cold soak, and then after the wines have been barreled down. I’m taking out the variability of secondary fermentation by doing this for the most part.
This is not as ‘scientific’ as I’d like to be, and I understand that, but the feeling that there is always a huge pH increase leads many to believe that these wines will be ‘flabby’ or lacking ‘zing’ as I just want to counter that. Does that make sense?
Cheers.
I’ve just never not (double negative) seen a difference in side by sides (which, as I said, happen just about every year). I get where you are coming from with the perception – but I think that the tannin addition, etc. more than compensates for any higher pH.
Thanks,
Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company
Larry,
I think it is creative artwork to the best winemakers, and from what I’ve read by reviewers it varies each and every year and wine.
So many factors to consider, and yet it is always what is in the bottle that counts.
Jedi Masters or Gungalagunga come to mind
Personally, I’d give them a call.
Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving
I thought stems lower alcohol, decrease acidity, increase pH, add tannins, add astringency, reduce anthocyanins, and perhaps add a spicy character.
But doesn’t it really depend a lot on the grape variety, the maturity of the grapes and therefore the stems, the maceration times, crush practices as well as other practices, etc?
I used to think I could tell what had stems and what didn’t. I don’t drink a lot of Pinot Noir and relied mostly on examples with Syrah, as well as other grapes. Then I found out that a lot of what I thought was from stems was really from the skins. That made me realize I was just stupid and clueless, and with that clarity, my life became much more satisfactory.
One thing I’ve wondered about stem inclusion and pH, is when does the stem inclusion raise the pH? That seems like a dumb question to ask (and might be).
One thing that happens with fermentation, i.e. alcohol, is Tartrates (that were completely soluble in juice) can become insoluble once it starts becoming wine because of the alcohol (i.e. tartarates are more soluble in juice, i.e. a water based solution, and less soluble in an alcoholic solution…which is why tartrates, aka ‘wine diamonds’ exists). The fascinating/odd thing is tartrates that drop out of a medium to low pH wine will push the pH lower (more acidic)…and the tartrates that drop out of wine in a high pH solution will push the pH higher (less acidic).
So, if stems are slow to cause an increase in the pH of a wine, and if the tartrates are fast to precipitate out of the wine (due to the alcohol)…then a medium-low pH wine would get a larger enough pH drop (the pH drop due to the tartrates is higher, because the stems hasn’t raised the pH yet)…and the difference might be enough to compensate (& maybe erase) the effect of stems increasing the pH.
Sorry, this is still more convoluted than it should be, but there’s a legitimate idea here so I’m posting anyways. Blame Jim Cowan’s AV Pinot I had with dinner…I am 
(which had whole cluster btw).
Suffice it to say that . . . It’s complicated.
experimentation is key, always learning
Eric, in my experience the shifts are quite rapid. Sinificant increase in pH happens in 24 hours.
Like Marcus, I observe the pH shift early during the first couple days of cold soak.
For us, though we see a +0.1-2pH shift resulting from the stem inclusion, the TA does not move. I have no idea how that works. The 2013 Alturas, the first year we started using whole-cluster, nudges 4.0pH but a TA well north of 6g/L. No one has ever described that wine as low acid.
With our 100% whole-cluster Syrah there is a definite carbonic character which is especially noticeable straight after bottling. It has receded/balanced out after a year+ in bottle. That character makes the wine a little fun to drink early.
Great discussion. Thanks to all you winemakers for your input!