and I’m drinking some Chevillon Passetoutgrain as we speak haha…
I agree, Beaujolais can be a good QPR option if you’re looking for a lighter high acid red, but I definitely think of Beaujolais and Red Burgundy - Pinot Noir, as two seperate categories. When I have a taste for red burgundy I’m not thinking Beaujolais. So I wouldn’t suggest Beaujolais as a replacement for Burgundy but as an alternative red that has some similar structure/characteristics.
Good evening,
Great questions and great thread. I have waited to reply so I could think on your post because the very real, and unfortunate, fact is that the way I- and many seasoned tasters on this board- learned burgundy is virtually impossible today unless you truly have an unlimited budget. My approach- and the best starting point- is taste, taste, taste. And I tasted everything at release when I got started- including wines like La Tache and Roumier Musigny. They were available and affordable back then. Not so today.
However, even that approach is not infallible because at that early stage you do not know how the wines are going to mature, nor indeed do most people really have a sense of how often and in what setting they will be drinking their burgundies. These latter two points are as important to your buying decisions as your stylistic preferences. Setting is particularly important because 20 years ago when I got started, wine was not the popular thing it is now. You did not buy bottles for tastings or tasting events- but for the dinner table. It is no mistake that many of the more “modern”, as they are called, wines are better suited to group blind tastings than as an accompaniment to a meal.
That said, here is what I would do in the current environment- and note that many of these suggestions would have been good ones 20 years ago too,
Grivot
Hudelot-Noellat
Roumier (only if your eventual budget will allow $500+ per bottle on the premier and grand crus)
Fourrier
Dugat
Drouhin
Angerville
Sauzet (stunning Bourgogne blanc- along with Leroy, one you can cellar for several years and see some great things develop)
Jadot
Meo-Camuzet
Bouchard
Faiveley
Ramonet
Henri Boillot
Parent
Liger-Belair
Dujac
PYCM
Niellon
Pernot
The above exercise will give you a good sense of what general styles you might like over time. I have omitted a number of good options where even the entry level wines are today incredibly expensive or hard to obtain.
Once you have an idea what producers you generally like, consider where you plan to buy most of your wines. And look very closely at local options. With the burgundy markets so heated, many small merchants with good burgundy connections keep that very quiet with the best wines never going on the shelf- but rather straight into the hands of local customers. This is usually where you get the best prices and the best assurances of getting the wines every year. But the caveat is no cherry picking. Generally speaking, those who skip vintages go to the back of the line.
Compare those options with what you like, as well as what you want to spend, and then you can pretty quickly figure out your sweet spot producers- meaning those who make wines you like, wines in your price range, and wines you can obtain easily on an ongoing basis. There is enough great burgundy in the world that even in these crazy times this approach can form the backbone of a great burgundy cellar at the lowest cost without you constantly chasing around in the secondary market looking for bottles.
These people who “go deep” on the big vintages and ignore the rest are never going to really understand or appreciate Burgundy at all, quite frankly. And they pay a huge price to cherry pick because you have to be a secondary market buyer in order to only purchase the best- unless you are part of a rare crowd that gets huge local allocations annually and can then flip the “off vintages” (usually at a loss though- because in the current secondary market the top vintages are marked up excessively and “lesser years” are sold at or near cost.)
There are good uses for most vintages. The 1992s were lovely young and middle-aged as luncheon wines. 1994s are just now starting to unfurl and will be suitable for gamey dishes or cheese platters. In the past 30 years the only vintage I have truly disliked is 1997- but even there I have found many positive upside surprises with time. Burgundy does not have to be a dominating force in your life, but if it is an important part at the dinner table- even if only rarely- just about every vintage has a worthwhile purpose.
Great vintage? Yes. But as much a creature of vintage as terroir. The wines will be incredible- in 30+ years. But they are of a volume and scale that- like 2000 Bordeaux- is unprecedented in our lifetime. One reason so many non-burgundy drinkers like 2005 is that the vintage is so very un-burgundy in its power and size. Worth cellaring some once you know what producers you favor, but these are extremely expensive wines and not good representative examples on which to make significant buying decisions about other vintages. Better to cut your teeth on what is normal and then later buy a few of these as special bottles if you are so inclined.
Once you have gone through 1 and 2, the next step I would recommend is to consider some of the major appellations and buy a few older bottles. This is where you are going to start spending some serious money, but it is critical to see wines that are maturing or at maturity when their true characters begin to emerge.
Good vintage choices in the current marketplace are 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2006, 2008 and 2009. These are not necessarily mature, but approachable to some degree in many cases (there is no way to give a perfect list where anything you get will show well), plus I have also put some emphasis on vintages that are not as expensive as years like 1999 or 2005.
Also, here I would stick with premier cru and above. You want to see wines of particular site distinction. The goal here is the same as in 1- to get a sense of what you really like at the present time so you can focus there. Some suggested wines to consider,
Jadot Gevrey-Chambertin Clos St. Jacques
Grivot Vosne-Romanee Beauxmonts
Roumier Chambolle Musigny AC or 1er cru Le Cras
Jadot Vosne-Romanee Suchots or Beauxmonts, Pommard Rugiens, Chambolle Les Fuees
Angerville Volnay Champans
Parent Cortons and Pommards
Ramonet Chassagne Morgeot and Caillerets- Ruchottes too, but that one shuts down hard so you need one 10+ yrs old and that is pricey
Niellon Chassagne Vergers
Meo-Camuzet Nuits St. Georges Boudots or Murgers- latter shuts down pretty hard, so avoid recent vintages unless young enough for exercise 1 above
Fourrier- just about anything
Dujac- Chambolle or Morey St. Denis
Drouhin- just about anything except Musigny or Bonnes-Mares which shut down hard
Who is famous in burgundy is driven by a lot of factors that will not necessarily match up with your personal reality and what you like. Leroy’s fame in the US is due in large part to the heaps of praise from Robert Parker and Matt Kramer, and also a little contest based out of Texas a good 30 years ago when two collectors wanted to see who could buy the most Leroy. Granted her prices would have eventually gotten where they are now, but that latter phenomenon contributed to the demand and price levels at the time which set the stage for present day fame.
I am with Howard on Leroy. When they are on- and fully mature- they are incredible, but I also find them to have a very heavy signature. You can easily spot them with some tasting experience. And because they are made to take so long to mature, you have a greater risk. The reward is greater too when things go well, but a lot can happen to a wine in 30+ years and I have seen my share of Leroy wines going out of balance or becoming excessively hard with age.
On the other hand, “those more affordable” as you call them (and as many of us would call them- it is a fair comment), also have their high points. In fact, a few of the Domaines on your more affordable list with which I am most familiar happen to make- in my opinion- either the greatest wine or one of the 2-3 greatest wines in a well known vineyard. That list includes,
Drouhin Griotte-Chambertin (one of the greatest wines in Burgundy)
Drouhin Beaune Clos des Mouches (blanc and rouge)
Drouhin Vosne-Romanee Petit Monts
Drouhin Bonnes-Mares
Bouchard Beaune-Greves Vigne de L’Enfant Jesus
Jadot Clos St. Denis
Jadot Chambolle Amoureuses
Jadot Chevalier-Montrachet Les Demoiselles
Drouhin Batard-Montrachet
Faiveley Gevrey-Chambertin Les Cazetiers
Faiveley Chambolle-Musigny Les Fuees
Many label chasers would sneer at the selections above- but they happen to be incredible wines. I know you were not sneering when you wrote your post- I am just pointing out that even in today’s market there are a number of first class wines that are largely ignored by the buyers who are driving prices ever higher.
Recent market trends are increasingly irrational to many of us who have followed this region for a long time. So many things that are so much more expensive than makes sense. But the good news is that irrationality cuts both ways- and even today there are bargains out there.
That was long, and more could be said. Hope this is helpful to you.
You know, to drink the great Burgundies nowadays, you either have to be rich, or have bought a fair amount of Burgundy years ago when it was slightly affordable, or know someone who is the former or did the latter. Even the list of “affordable” burgs includes wines that are now $300+ per bottle like the Drouhin VR Petit Monts, or $500+ per bottle like the Drouhin Bonnes Mares. There ain’t no deals no more!
Thank God I am not starting to collect now. But all is not lost!
If you have unlimited funds, you have no problem…just buy all the great Burgs regardless of price.
However, if I were starting to buy now, with some realistic limitation of funds, I think I would not be spending a few hundred dollars per bottle to drink the great wines. I am not sure that is worth it. During my years of collecting I did not buy DRC, though I tasted a few…they were great, but just too expensive. I never regretted not buying them at those prices. If I were starting now, I think I would try to forget the wines I had been reading about that were supposed to be so great…Rousseau Chambertin, and Beze and CSJ, and Roumie BM and Dujac BM and CSD and CdlR, and Mugnier Musigny, etc., etc. I would put them in that conceptual box and set it aside, and search for tomorrow’s excellent (and more reasonably priced) producers and exceptional wines. Tiny production and enormous demand has raised prices to absurd levels, and chasing those wines just doesn’t make sense unles one is fairly wealthy.
Tom, as someone who is also looking to start laying down more Burgundy, your response is a great help. Thank you for taking the time to include a list of producers in it as well.
Great post, Tom! If only one could be that rational when pursuing a passion…
A question to your point 3, quoted above. I didn’t have a chance to taste much of the 2005 as I started buying and visiting Burgundy a while later. 2006 and later vintage were available, but 2005 was basically sold out everywhere in Europe. But my impression is that your description above applies equally well to 2015, a vintage which is very atypical for Burgundy and which I have difficulties to call a great one, despite all the praise.
Your opinion?
So where should the line be drawn? Should Cote Chalonnaise and Marsannay be excluded since they are lesser Burgundies?
The reason I referred to Condrieu and not, say, Cote Rotie, is the difference in grapes.
I took the reds from the “affordable wines” above and dropped into WS Pro. This is what I found for the reds in the US (2016, or 2015 if 2016 not available):
Drouhin Bonnes-Mares - $700
Drouhin Griotte-Chambertin - $600
Drouhin Vosne-Romanee Petit Monts - $400
Jadot Chambolle Amoureuses - $300
Jadot Clos St. Denis - $200
Faiveley Chambolle-Musigny Les Fuees - $190
Bouchard Beaune-Greves Vigne de L’Enfant Jesus - $110
Faiveley Gevrey-Chambertin Les Cazetiers - $110
My first reaction was “bummer”. I am priced out of producers I didn’t expect (e.g., in this case Drouhin or even Jadot).
But my more thoughtful, post-FOMO, reaction is a chunk of those wines are still within budget for my “top” end bottles. So the chase continues!
I think I will need to make a list of each major producer, their major production lines, and price each line out. Not to blindly buy them, but figure out which producers are too expensive for me. when starting this journey I knew I had to rule out DRC etc., but I think I need to become smarter and figure out whether I should be automatically blocking many, many other producers from my mindspace. My budget has gone up and up and up the more I learned over the past few months… but it’s now maxed out. And truth of it is, for me, I’m excited by the recent Faiveley, Duroche, Lignier and Arlaud I’ve picked up.
I will tell you what I do fwiw (admittedly little). Get on Robert Panzer’s (Down to Earth Wines) email list and read his sales blurbs and try the reasonably priced wines he raves about. You might very well-like me-find happiness and maintain some semblance of financial sanity.
Tom, that was incredibly helpful and well thought out. Thanks for taking the time to write that. Your comment about tasting La Tache and Roumier Musigny on release back then - pretty crazy. The names of those wines and “affordable” and “available” don’t appear in the same sentence too often these days… I don’t get upset when I hear the stories of how these wines used to be affordable (at least compared to now) and available since there is nothing I can do about it. I’m thankful that I can at least hear from people that had the chance to taste and experience these wines when they were starting out. In lieu of tasting these wines I’m depending mostly on piecing together what I hear from others to contribute to my burgundy education. I don’t say that to mean I won’t taste as much as I can or that I’m not going to value tasting these wines when possible. It’s just that I’m using what I hear from you guys to fill in the gaps of my ever-ongoing burgundy education. That is why it’s important for me to ask and why I value the responses I’ve got in this post.
All of your points were good but I wanted to ask about the producers you mentioned. I’ve tasted wine from almost all of those producers, but in some cases only 1-2 wines while for others many. I’ve only had mature or close to mature examples from a couple. What I’d like to ask is where those producers would lie on the spectrum of traditional to modern and or what some key features of their styles would be. For some of the producers I know it’s more clear but for others I’ve heard conflicting reports. I understand some of this could be subjective too but it’d be helpful if you or anyone could comment on this.
Lastly, I also was wondering, like Gilberto who posted earlier, if you’d put the 2015 vintage in the same category as the 2005s.
Yes, as in my suggestion above, unless funds are unlimited, someone starting a Burgundy collection and passion today needs to do so with a new paradigm. There is plenty of excellent Burgundy out there to be had and new producers to discover that will not break the bank. The “old” greats (or at least the top wines in the stables of the “old” greats and even the “latest” greats that everyone is seeking out) are priced out of contention. Drouhin and Jadot used to be bargains, but no more…at least for their top domaine wines. It is better, as you implied, to get over sulking over the producers and wines that are out of reach and be excited about the producers you know and those you will learn about that are within reach. And what’s exciting is that there are a larger number of excellent wines being made today as techniques have improved and the next generation has taken over a number of estates and elevated their winemaking. Artaud, I believe, is just one example of a previously “middlin” producer whose status (and prices) are on the rise as the son has taken over and rejeuvenated the domaine. Speculating in Burgundy, however…trying to buy wines that will reliably escalate in value as an “investment” of sorts for later resale…will probably be hit or miss unless one buys the “blue chip” wines and producers at their now inflated prices. But I think that is beside the point of buying Burgundy anyway.
I think it’s too late for me to “forget” or put those wines into the “conceptual box” but either way, your comment does help balance my developing perspective.
Even though I’m not a burghead (used to love the whites, gave up when premox hit), I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to comment so thoughtfully and in such detail. This has been a fun read and one of the best threads in a while.
It’s been over a decade since we had a recession. We are due for one. Until then ![[cry.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/853b6e76c6e8406be77a6727c2a27ad1672678b3.gif "cry"){kind=small}
Lots of great Burgundy for sub-$50. You just have to live with not drinking much Cote de Nuits. I also find that aside from the trophy producers and very top wines, you can find most wines for less a few years after release.
Yes, as soon as the next vintage of the century comes out, the prices on the last vintage of the century seem to cool off a bit (and those of the lesser “vintages-of-only-the-decade” cool off even more). And even for those that don’t, the price escalation of the latest “it” vintage will make them seem relatively more reasonable. But then if you wait too many years, the fact that they have age on them makes the price start to climb again. The trick is to find an underrated vintage that you like (for me, 2001 is an example) and strike while the interest level is low, hopefully before too many positive vintage reassessments are published.
Great post. +1
Is it that easy to backfill more desirable burgundy at prices close to release pricing? It hasn’t struck me as that easy to do.
Thanks everyone for your kind words.
To answer the question on 2015 that you and a couple of others posed, I have not had many 2015s yet. It has been a busy year and I actually have quite a pile of them I need to taste soon.
But based on some smaller wines tasted in trade settings and then on a more extended visit with 2015 Parent Corton-Renardes (which is a rare example of a magnificent bottle of Burgundy that can be had for under $150 in the 2015 vintage), 2015- great as it is- is still nowhere near the scale of 2005. The 2005s are truly huge wines- the few I have had anyway. They are massive- so massive that a seasoned Burgundy taster would have to try them to fully comprehend just how big they are.
Perfect example- at release, I did something for the first and probably only time in my entire life- I put on a tasting of the entire range of 2006 DRC wines for a small group of friends. For all of us except for one seasoned ITBer, it was the first time we had ever experienced that. It was incredible. And then once that was done, we dug into some wines brought by other people. Included in that was a small flight of Roumier- 2005 Chambolle AC and 2005 Bonnes-Mares. Once upon a time, we got a lot of Roumier in Texas, and so I have TNs for Chambolle and/or Bonnes Mares at release in almost every vintage from 2005 back to 1992. The 2005s were huge. The 2005 Chambolle was- in scale- just as big as Bonnes Mares is in many vintages. The wines were not necessarily more nuanced or better than usual - it is just everything was magnified to a degree I never could have imagined. They did not blow the DRCs away, not by a long shot, but their scale was so far beyond them.
2015 is not like that. It is a magnificent vintage I think- though time will tell- and incredibly balanced with great ripeness, but the sheer size of 2005 is not there. 2009 comes closer, but 2015 is more classically restrained than 2009 for me. In a sense it is the best of both worlds- good ripe, cuddly fruit and good terroir definition. I need to try more wines first, but so far for me it is a combo of the best attributes of 1993 and 1995, if not quite as deep and savage as the best 1993s were at release.
As for ranking the producers on modern vs traditional- that is tricky. Let me just say this- I prefer the old way of things in many sense. I prefer wines that will be harmonious with a meal over wines of scale that will show better against other wines. I prize aromatics over fruit (though of course both are necessary), and I prefer an experience that is intellectually stimulating and emotionally moving in subtle ways versus more hedonistic or jaw-dropping.
I would prefer to have dinner with Sian Phillips or Geraldine Page over Marilyn Monroe or Doris Day- though if I could have dinner once a week I would put everyone in the rotation with varying frequency 
On that note, my current go-to producers are,
Drouhin
Jadot
Meo-Camuzet
Parent
Bouzereau (white burgs- worth trying to find, but not easy- hence not listed above)
Angerville
Ramonet
Sauzet
Faiveley
Leroy Bourgogne Blanc- in the age of premox, it is good to keep this on hand to drink young and really get a nice white burg thrill without the risk
Were it not for current pricing and availability, DRC, Roumier and Rousseau would also be on that list. Maybe Grivot too- though the occasional encounter with his wines of late has left me thinking them a bit flashier than I remember from the past, or would like.
or Chevillon… the '15 Bourgogne is an over achiever. I recently opened an '05 village, also punches much above its pedigree.