“Aged.” On countless occassions I’ve seen 2005 CdP or 2004 or '05 Napa cabs referred to as “aged” or “on the decline.” Now, I’m not saying those opinions are wrong – they’re not. All I’m saying is that I strongly disagree with those opinions; likewise, those who hold the opinions that I strongly disagree with would similarly disagree with my opinions on the matter; no problem — it’s just opinion.
I think there are a lot of good points here. Especially that patience and time is required to build a cellar of mature Bordeaux. Most Americans don’t inherit any aged wine - I certainly didn’t. My cellar is slowly getting older - another decade and I will have a lot of drinkable wines that demonstrate some level of maturity. Yes, I have been impatient along the way and drank some way too early - but so what? And there are many wines that really don’t deserve two decades of cellar time - Anyone have a big stash of 91s or 93s or even 94s. And god help those who bought big in 95 or 86 or 75. Backward vintages with harsh tannins that just take forever to come around. Sure this is a generalization and no doubt there are some great wines in those vintages but I wouldn’t want a cellar full of them. The best vintages take at least 10 years to show predictably well and even then most of those wines aren’t fully mature. But some wines tire, they lose their fruit and frankly aren’t necessarily all that great at age 20 or 30 or older. I will say I generally get more pleasure from Bords that have a little age on them (around 10 years) than wines that have only a few years of cellar time.
Everyone has a different experience. I fell in love with Bordeaux when I lived in Paris in the summer of 1989. It seemed that Bordeaux was available eveywhere for a song, I even remember seeing it at a gas station somewhere, so cheap (under $5 got you a nice bottle of wine or so I thought as a student.
My first case was 86 Beycheville, I still have a few. Then futures of 89 and 90. Being in my early 20’s I didn’t know better and drank a ton of them young, and particularly the 1990’s on release blew me away. At the time everyone was still in awe with 82’s, but man oh man did I drink some bricks, 82 Las Cases, Cheval, some really closed down wines. I found a place in Atlanta called Dantes a fondue plae but they had some great deals, 70 Latour, 62 Las Cases, 70 Palmer, etc etc. I cleared out several bins and loved the experience of the drinking the older wines.
I really like trying them out when they are first released. In the middle now, not so much. In 89 and 90 I just bought the good stuff and didn’t have everyday drinkers, I did not make that mistake in 2000 and bought tons and tons of everyday drinkers so I could keep my hands off the wines that needed to age.
But criticizing those that open them at the “wrong” time is lame, that’s part of the education, you need to drink some bricks (completely shut down wines with no aromatics, hard as nails, etc) to learn to try to keep the hands off.
The special wines like the 61’s, oh they demonstrate the reward of patience, or buying a nice bottle at auction, etc. I got soooo lucky a couple of years ago and bought 53, 55, and 61 Haut Brion. I took the 53 to a tasting, it had a mid-shoulder fill and I was worried it would be shot, but it just amazed everyone when the bag came off and one guy was brought to tears as it was it was his birthyear. “I like Ike” (President at the time) so neat. And the 28’s…pre-depression…drinking history in the bottle. What a fun hobby!
Nick,
You wrote:
“I’ve been listening to these comments about America’s wine habits for awhile now. You need to remember that we have our own wine industry here. We buy the great growths because they are the ones seeking out. If an American is looking for a $10 or $15 bottle of wine we can choose from the entire world. I’ve tasted many inexpensive Bordeaux and quite frankly they don’t holdup to the competition. But maybe the Chinese will buy them now.”
I agree with some of what you say. The fact that 3 out of 4 bottles of wine consumed in America were domestic (last time I looked), is indeed an important factor!
It is also true that people are feel to seek out the name wines if that’s what turns them on. That’s there business.
Where I am less in agreement with you is your appreciation of affordable Bordeaux. I guess I’m spoiled living in the wine country, because there is an embarrassment of riches here, and I have been sampling them for many years. There are heaps and loads of good value wines - some six thousand châteaux in Bordeaux!!! As I wrote above, these don’t make it to the States, where the market sadly equates “Bordeaux” with “great growths”.
Once again, it’s a (mostly) free world. The fact that markets are the way they are doesn’t make them “wrong”… or “right”.
I know of mid-range Bordeaux (< 20 euros a bottle) that can hold its own with wines from just about anywhere in the world. There is a huge market for such wines in Europe, but the American market wants their great growths and don’t even have the opportunity to buy them (as someone else mentioned above).
Well, with the crus classés becoming increasingly out of reach, perhaps that will move American importers to get off their butts and discover something other than the elite wines when they come to Bordeaux.
Let us hope so.
Best regards,
Alex R.
Alex,
One of my local shops brings in a reasonable range of lower-priced Bordeaux most years. Of course there’s little way to know much about the wines short of tasting them, but as most are $15-$20 that’s no great hardship. One that has consistently caught my attention of late, and is getting better and better is Hourtin Ducasse. I had the '08 not long ago, and it was a very enjoyable drink. It’s not something I am going to lay down for 10 years, but it just tastes good. At $16 it’s a good deal as well. It will never wow the folks on the board, but on a casual Wednesday night with a burger, some lamb chops or a steak it’s just what the doctor ordered.
I am curious if you have tasted H-D of late, as getting your thought on a wine I regularly enjoy would be a useful data point in this back and forth on less expensive Bordeaux.
Does your local shop ever do tastings, David? Perhaps float the idea to the shop’s owner/manager to do a tasting of a selection of their sub-$25 Bdx. That’s a tasting I would attend, were I in your area.
They did it for the 2005s when those came in. They haven’t been doing as many tastings lately, though they had the winemaker for Hourtin Ducasse in the shop & he poured the '08. I suspect they will do it for the '09s as they come in.
Interesting thread.
I’m certainly guilty of drinking some of my first growths a little young (10yrs old or so) years ago but as I expanded out my cellar, its so much easier to let my remaining bottles lay. My purchases of bordeaux have slacked off in recent years because of the relative value compared to other favorites of mine from cali and au and the earlier accessibility of said competition. I sure wish I had laid away more cases when I was a bigger buyer of bordeaux and it was way cheaper.
And honestly, I’m just not excited to buy '10 futures knowing I won’t want to drink them until I’m retired.
My rule of thumb for cellar worthy wines are to not touch cali cabs until they’re 10 years old and bordeaux until they’re 20.
Sometimes I bend my rule but the temptation is easier to stave off now than before.
I own wines that I bought over 30 years ago. I just opened a bottle of '66 Clos Fourtet that I bought in, IIRC, 1978. I’ve been opening one every few years for the past 20 years to watch its development. This bottle was very nice, held up better than a 1978 Jordan we opened at the same time, and had the flavor profile of classic Bordeaux. Was this bottle worth the wait? As an intellectual exercise, Yes it was. As measured by taste sensations, No it was not. I have had many bottles that I opened much younger that delivered much more sensory pleasure. And for those of you youing 'uns who say “big deal, 1966 was not such a great year,” the rebuttal is that for the decade of the 1970s, it was generally agreed that the two great years for Bordeaux after 1959 were 1961 and 1966. That’s why I bought a case of the Clos Fourtet in the first place.
So what is the “learning” I glean from this:
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The risk/reward is just not good enough. I have had some truly awful bottles of the Clos Fourtet, all of which came from the same case and were stored together all these years. Once bottle had a cork that had disintegrated so badly that there was no evidence of a cork ever having been in the bottle. Another bottle tasted like a ziploc bag of mushrooms that had gotten lost at the back of the refrigerator for six months. There is too much variability to have any degree of certainty when you lay down a bottle that you will be able to stand it up 25 years later and enjoy it.
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Despite all the prognosticators, there is no precision to predicting which vintages will age the best. Now people say that 1966 was not a good year in Bordeaux, but if you had asked someone in 1980, they would have described it as a classic vintage worthy of cellaring for a long time, one of the top 5 vinatges of the post-war era.
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There are too many old bottles - I open a few of my own every year - that generate the response, “For this I waited so long? Why?” It just doesn’t seem to me to be worth the trouble.
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I will be opening a bottle of 1951 Offley Colheita Port tomorrow. Should be OK, because it’s port. Hope springs eternal.
I’m not sure using 66 Clos Fourtet is the best example to determine how well Bordeaux ages. 66 has always been a Left Bank vintage and in those days, like many producers especially in the Right Bank, Clos Fourtet was making bad wine.
2. Despite all the prognosticators, there is no precision to predicting which vintages will age the best. Now people say that 1966 was not a good year in Bordeaux, but if you had asked someone in 1980, they would have described it as a classic vintage worthy of cellaring for a long time, one of the top 5 vinatges of the post-war era.
66 is a mixed vintage. The wines are best in the Medoc. I have a few wines that have aged well, for example Lascombes, Beychvelle, Lynch Bages and Ducru. 66 Palmer is a rock star, Latour is outstanding as well.
All of my top experiences have come from older wines. But it is a matter of provenance, vintage and producer if you want to drink older wines.
An eminently sensible perspective. Most of the hype for aged wines seems to come from people who do not care about ROI very much, i.e. one ethereal bottle, wine, vintage causes them to forget about all the other failures along the way. Either that or wines are consumed in a ceremonial format where the experience matters as much as the wine itself.
Of course, I am putting down wines to age. But I am realistic. I’m going to follow wines over longer time frames rather bet that in X years the wine will emerge a swan. So try bottles here and there rather than wait forever for gratification that may or may not come.
Wine is most reliable young. Weak corks–an unacceptably huge source of bottle variation that collectors inexplicably tolerate–simply don’t have enough time to do their damage in a few years. While it is a waste to drink massively structured, backward, mouth drying reds young, balanced young wines can be drunk young. Lesser reward, but lesser risk as well.
My ‘ideal’ hedge is wine that remains fresh with lively structure from youth, but has developed some bottle aroma in 5-10 years. This is going to be as hard as ‘nailing’ a wine at peak tertiary maturity, I’d wager, though.
Another consideration is evolution of the taster. Your taste is only going downhill from childhood. This is probably good since you tolerate complex bitter, sour and umami flavors more easily as you mature, but eventually your ability to discern quality wine will degrade. So if you are 40 and laying down wines for 20-30 years, do the math. How good will your senses be at age 60 or 70? What good is a wine at peak if you are on the downslope?
The way to go I think is trying aged wines while one is younger, but the up front cost seems quite large compared to other immediately drinkable wines of some quality. Oh well, such is life. Properly aged wine is a symbol of class and breeding, and as a result its price is quite high, even accounting for storage costs. I drop some $$$ here and there in the near future if I am confident of the provenance.
Alex,
My point is very simple. For years the accusation has been made that Americans only drink the great chateau in the great years. This statement has been used to show the U.S sense of elitism, hipsterism and snobbery. I am pointing out that we owe no allegiance to Bordeaux or any other wine region. The USA consumes plenty of inexpensive wines. They are just not Bordeaux. In fact, I would guess that we consume more sub 20 dollar bottles of French wine than the French consume of US wines. Per capita of course. So I’m not only saying that we have the right to ignore lower priced wines from France, but it probably isn’t an accurate assessment.
And if anyone would like to share with me my bottle of 1973 Mouton, not considered a great year in any estimation, and which I have owned virtually since release, I would be happy to help a group of Americans poke a hole in the “accusation.” I will even provide a bottle of Saxum to drink afterwards, which is what it will take to clear the taste out of your mouth.
AND I would bet that a lot of good wine that the amount of French wine consumed in the US dwarfs the amount of US wine consumed in France. Once. To suggest, as other people have, that US wine tastes are more snobbish or elitist than the attirtudes in other countries (I know you’re not suggesting that, just commenting on what other people have said) is ludicrous. Just try to by a bottle of US wine in Paris. I suspect that I can find more wines from the likes of Moldova and Khazakstan at the local wine shop in White Plains than US wines at a big shop in Paris.
Hmm, I was disappointed when one of my first purchases, 82 Calon was shot, somehow air got into the bottle. Same with and 89 Pich Lalande and same with a 89 La Fleur De Gay.
Also of note- Sometimes they DON’T evolve in the right direction, the 89 La Fleur De Gay was amazing on release but it has never quite been the rockstar it was…
The other young wine that was sublime was 89 Haut Brion, obviously that was “stupid” but man were they good, I was 24 and didn’t know any better and just bought it and drank it. The KILLER was the 90 Cheval as mentioned and also 90 Baron, Figeac, and La Dominique off the top of my head. I was cash heavy and could drink these and the 82 all the time…now not as crazy…
Not wanting to duplicate a post, but WS had a great thread,a couple of months back, titled something like “95% of red wines are drank to young”. Most posters agreed wholeheatedly. If infantcide is not grossly overdone and bad enough, I have visited people’s home, who claim to be wine lovers, that don’t own a decanter and never attempt to decant. 
So add never decant (only pop, pour, and drink) to infantcide. Sounds like a TN on CT.
I’ve had some great aged wines as well. There was a 1975 Latour bought in 1978 that we drank about 10 years ago that was great, and a 1976 red burg I bought on release that was one of the best wines I have ever had. Even the 1974 Haut Brion was great after 20 years. BUT in my experience, once you get beyond about 15 or 20 years, it’s hit or miss, and there are more than enough misses to discourage me from long term cellaring. That doesn’t mean that I’m rushing to drink my 2005 Bdx, but I’m now plowing through my 2000 lesser crus.
Me too. And I have had only one of these many that I bought in 2000 that was fading, many are in a sweet spot or will be there soon, depending on cellar temperature. Any that you partiularly like at the moment Jay?
Nick, Jay,
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For years the accusation has been made that Americans only drink the great chateau in the great years.
It is hard to deny that vintage reputation, the exchange rate, and estates that are virtually household names are the guiding factors on the US market. Although reliable statistics are impossible to put forward for the great growths, if you take an appellation with a high percentage of crus classés like St. Julien and compare exports from a pooh-poohed year two-three years after the vintage to a much-touted year two-three years after the vintage, you’ll see the big dip…
The US buys a disproportionate part of the expensive wines from the best vintages. This is not a moral judgement, just a fact. By “disproportionate”, I’m referring to average price per bottle compared to the other main markets for Bordeaux.
This statement has been used to show the U.S sense of elitism, hipsterism and snobbery.
There is indeed that element, but that’s only part of the picture. Other factors include poor media coverage, cold feet from importers, the double-edged “château” system in Bordeaux (that limits the amount of available wine for a market as large as the US), consumer ignorance (yes, I know that sounds pretty snooty, but how to put it otherwise?), etc.
I am pointing out that we owe no allegiance to Bordeaux or any other wine region. The USA consumes plenty of inexpensive wines. They are just not Bordeaux.
That’s the way it is, agreed. All I’ve been trying to say is that it’s a pity because there are plenty of wines that are worthy of attention. I do not worship the status quo or find it justified. The market has its reasons, but these can be bizarre…
One of the most popular premium grape varieties in California is Cabernet Sauvignon. Alright, this is only an opinion, and I’m aware that you can’t compare apples and oranges, but I believe that the value-for-money ratio for that variety, for comparably-priced wines, is better in Bordeaux than it is for California (perhaps worthy of a tasting)?
The process of natural selection whereby “if it’s good, it’ll make it, it it ain’t it won’t” doesn’t really apply. And, hey, I wouldn’t limit that statement to Bordeaux either! There are some superb Corbières wines and Spanish wines that don’t get the attention they deserve. The reason they don’t is complicated.
In fact, I would guess that we consume more sub 20 dollar bottles of French wine than the French consume of US wines. Per capita of course. So I’m not only saying that we have the right to ignore lower priced wines from France, but it probably isn’t an accurate assessment.
Sorry, I’m really out-of-date when it comes to American wines and the rare ones I come by are not repesentative. Of course, you are right. There is a great imbalance between California wines brought into France and French wines brought into the States. But this is a red herring… I’m just sad that the wines I know and love, and that in my opinion can easily hold their own against comparably priced wines just about anywhere, are not available in America. There is no right or wrong or political consideration involved here at all.
Best regards,
Alex R.
Hi Alex,
Regarding your post, I agree that we buy heavily in the best years. But I think we pay the lowest prices in the world for our Bordeaux. In
Paris for example, they mostly have off years at high prices. UK may be close to our price paid but are there countries that pay less then us for the best stuff?
If your statement is true it must have happened really recently…
Hi Mike,
I agree that the best châteaux from the best years have often been cheaper to buy retail in the US than in France. Difficult, of course, to make a blanket statement. Also, the exchange rate makes things see-saw, and the US can seem like 50 different countries sometimes…
I usually find the great growths cheaper in the UK than the US.
When you say “If your statement is true it must have happened really recently…”, I really don’t know which statement in particular you are referring to!
All the best,
Alex R.