The ten best Champagnes?

[Tvrtko_C]

@Russell Faulkner

The simple answer is… that it doesn’t work like that.

This.

Or you might consider changing the thread title.

[Saul_Mutchnick]

So many questions.

1. Why does a producer need a track record of more than a decade or two of releases? We don’t seem to think that a Burgundy producer has to have a track record going back to the 70’s to be considered great (eg: Fourrier, Mugneret-Gibourg, Hudelot-Noellat, etc.). We also wouldn’t say that Allemand’s wines weren’t great because we don’t have extremely old bottles from him–what makes Champagne so special that we have to disqualify great growers simply because they haven’t been around since the 70’s or early 80’s.

2. Why do we think that just because a winery made a great wine in the 70’s or 80’s their wines today will age into greatness–especially if their production has expanded and their young wines are not as qualitatively high on the pecking order as the aforementioned growers?

3. Why would any top list of Champagnes ignore growers like Gimmonet or Peters or Vilmart? Growers that have been bottling wines for quite some time now with an impressive track record. A record that puts to shame a lot of the wines on that top 10 list (Deutz, Cliquot, L-P).

[scott_c]

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

My person favorites:

1. Salon
2. Krug Clos le Mesnil
3. Taittinger Comtes
4. Bollinger Vieilles Vignes BdN
5. Philipponnat CdG
6. Selosse Les Carelles BdB
7. Pol Roger Sir Winston Churchill
8. Heidsieck Blanc des Millénaires
9. Henriot Cuvee des Enchanteleurs
10. Ruinart BdB
    sorry, for my palate, cristal does not have any place in a top 10, and absent some of the p2 and p3 bottlings, same with dom

This is actually a pretty good list. Krug CdM might be a little high, Bolly VVF a little low, and I’m not sure I’d have Heidsieck and Henriot on the list, but otherwise, not much to quibble with (assuming you mean Dom Ruinart, not the regular Ruinart BdB). I think Pierre Peters Chetillons might squeeze into my top 10, but I’m not sure about other growers – maybe Paul Bara Comtesse Marie de France. It sounds like I like rose more than you, but for me it is extremely dependent on vintage. For example, if this were a top 10 Champagnes of 1996, Dom Perignon rose would absolutely be on it. Also, I’d swap Selosse Millesime for Carelles because to me the lieux dits are too variable.

[p_a_u_l_b_a_t_t_a_g_l_i_a]

@scott c

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

My person favorites:

1. Salon
2. Krug Clos le Mesnil
3. Taittinger Comtes
4. Bollinger Vieilles Vignes BdN
5. Philipponnat CdG
6. Selosse Les Carelles BdB
7. Pol Roger Sir Winston Churchill
8. Heidsieck Blanc des Millénaires
9. Henriot Cuvee des Enchanteleurs
10. Ruinart BdB
    sorry, for my palate, cristal does not have any place in a top 10, and absent some of the p2 and p3 bottlings, same with dom

This is actually a pretty good list. Krug CdM might be a little high, Bolly VVF a little low, and I’m not sure I’d have Heidsieck and Henriot on the list, but otherwise, not much to quibble with (assuming you mean Dom Ruinart, not the regular Ruinart BdB). I think Pierre Peters Chetillons might squeeze into my top 10, but I’m not sure about other growers – maybe Paul Bara Comtesse Marie de France. It sounds like I like rose more than you, but for me it is extremely dependent on vintage. For example, if this were a top 10 Champagnes of 1996, Dom Perignon rose would absolutely be on it. Also, I’d swap Selosse Millesime for Carelles because to me the lieux dits are too variable.

i am an admitted henriot enchanteleurs junkie… sitting on about 5 cases altogether most being the 96, which is just an amazing champagne for my palate. and yes, meant the dom ruinart- sorry for not articulating that.

[PaulM]

@scott c

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

My person favorites:

1. Salon
2. Krug Clos le Mesnil
3. Taittinger Comtes
4. Bollinger Vieilles Vignes BdN
5. Philipponnat CdG
6. Selosse Les Carelles BdB
7. Pol Roger Sir Winston Churchill
8. Heidsieck Blanc des Millénaires
9. Henriot Cuvee des Enchanteleurs
10. Ruinart BdB
    sorry, for my palate, cristal does not have any place in a top 10, and absent some of the p2 and p3 bottlings, same with dom

This is actually a pretty good list. Krug CdM might be a little high, Bolly VVF a little low, and I’m not sure I’d have Heidsieck and Henriot on the list, but otherwise, not much to quibble with (assuming you mean Dom Ruinart, not the regular Ruinart BdB). I think Pierre Peters Chetillons might squeeze into my top 10, but I’m not sure about other growers – maybe Paul Bara Comtesse Marie de France. It sounds like I like rose more than you, but for me it is extremely dependent on vintage. For example, if this were a top 10 Champagnes of 1996, Dom Perignon rose would absolutely be on it. Also, I’d swap Selosse Millesime for Carelles because to me the lieux dits are too variable.

Exactly where I am.

[PaulM]

@Ledwards

Lastly, while it may not get the street cred of others, don’t sleep on the Clicquot La Grande Dame- it ages great, the 1990 for example, is still available at a reasonable price and just great right now.

SHHHHHHH!

[RichSteinberg]

@Cam Wheeler

Good list, but I would personally find a spot for Taittinger Comtes de Champagne.

My personal fave.

[Howard_Cooper]

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

and just my own stylistic preference, but NO ROSE! i have never had a rose that can match the complexity, depth, and finish of a bollinger vieilles vignes, or several of the BdBs.

Try a 1979 Dom Ruinart Rose.

[p_a_u_l_b_a_t_t_a_g_l_i_a]

@Howard Cooper

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

and just my own stylistic preference, but NO ROSE! i have never had a rose that can match the complexity, depth, and finish of a bollinger vieilles vignes, or several of the BdBs.

Try a 1979 Dom Ruinart Rose.

thanks for the tip!

[Ledwards]

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

@Howard Cooper

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

and just my own stylistic preference, but NO ROSE! i have never had a rose that can match the complexity, depth, and finish of a bollinger vieilles vignes, or several of the BdBs.

Try a 1979 Dom Ruinart Rose.

thanks for the tip!

This brings up some drift- backfilling champagne–> For example… 1) can anyone source the above wine? likely no (wine-searcher shows no bottles for sale using the past 4 years history {for the US} and only 7 bottles on CT) 2) how much? why ask if it can’t be found…

If I were building a cellar today, I would buy as much champagne as possible as backfilling is nearly impossible and incredibly costly. Champagne ages so wonderfully and remains in a golden era. Rarely do I see a bad tasting note and I don’t recall many bad bottles in my travels- certainly not at the rate of other white wines. If I only would have been all over Salon 10-15 years ago…

[p_a_u_l_b_a_t_t_a_g_l_i_a]

That has been my gameplan as well Ledwards. The biggest percentage of one varietal and vintage in my cellar is 96 champagne. 02 champagne will probably end up being #2 although right now that is held by 2010 BdM.

[Ledwards]

Similar champagne story here- sprinkle in any and all reasonable backfilling opportunities and any Salon that is reasonable. Feel free to call me Luke.

[DougS]

@Ledwards

So, you are saying that an oxidative style is a sign of poor quality?

Not necessarily, but it can be too much, to the extent that it absolutely means poor quality. The excessive ethyl acetate noted by Stevenson and others is definitely and reasonably a sign of that. Too much for one person might not be too much for another, but there’s no question that at some point you’ve got flawed wine. Oxidative taken too far gives you oxidized. Even as a Selosse fan, I have to admit that every bottle I’ve had (only a handful, so again, small sample size) contains the low level flaw of elevated VA and ethyl acetate. Some have found what is for me perfect harmony with those minor problems, others have not quite gotten there. I still really like the wines in general, but I completely understand the debate over whether or not they’re great wines, or even sound wines in some cases.

[etomasi]

@Todd F r e n c h

Any love for Heidsieck Blanc des Millénaires?

Yes, the 95 might be the best I’ve had. Altho the 1996 Heidsieck rose was close. I think that many people dislike the style. The Charles Heidsieck wines are a touch heavy, which is why I like them. They go well with food.

[teddemop]

Any list needs a set of guidelines - these were just my guidelines for this specific list. Certianly not saying this is the only way to go.

I drink maybe 95% grower Champagnes these days for example and long have (so many growers so little time!)

Would have love to have added Vilmart for example, and he is on many of my (unwritten) favorite lists!

@Saul Mutchnick

So many questions.

1. Why does a producer need a track record of more than a decade or two of releases? We don’t seem to think that a Burgundy producer has to hae a track record going back to the 70’s to be considered great (eg: Fourrier, Mugneret-Gibourg, Hudelot-Noellat, etc.). We also wouldn’t say that Allemand’s wines weren’t great because we don’t have extremely old bottles from him–what makes Champagne so special that we have to disqualify great growers simply because they haven’t been around since the 70’s or early 80’s.

2. Why do we think that just because a winery made a great wine in the 70’s or 80’s their wines today will age into greatness–especially if their production has expanded and their young wines are not as qualitatively high on the pecking order as the aforementioned growers?

3. Why would any top list of Champagnes ignore growers like Gimmonet or Peters or Vilmart? Growers that have been bottling wines for quite some time now with an impressive track record. A record that puts to shame a lot of the wines on that top 10 list (Deutz, Cliquot, L-P).

[alan_weinberg]

for me, Salon, Krug, Clos des Goisses, Pol Roger SWC, Vilmart, Dom Ruinart, Dom Perignon, and Taittinger Comtes. I’ll drink the Dom that the cognoscenti disdains.

[p_a_u_l_b_a_t_t_a_g_l_i_a]

@alan weinberg

for me, Salon, Krug, Clos des Goisses, Pol Roger SWC, Dom Ruinart, Dom Perignon, and Taittinger Comtes. I’ll drink the Dom that the cognoscenti disdains.

certainly don’t disdain Dom- it is ALWAYS a treat. the biggest problem with top 10 lists… there is only room for 10 in the list! i think Ted suffered the same for not putting any growers in his list (which i didn’t do either)- there are so many exceptional champagnes, that some true standouts are still gonna be left out in the cold in a top 10 list.

[Daniel_Kim]

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

@alan weinberg

for me, Salon, Krug, Clos des Goisses, Pol Roger SWC, Dom Ruinart, Dom Perignon, and Taittinger Comtes. I’ll drink the Dom that the cognoscenti disdains.

certainly don’t disdain Dom- it is ALWAYS a treat. the biggest problem with top 10 lists… there is only room for 10 in the list! i think Ted suffered the same for not putting any growers in his list (which i didn’t do either)- there are so many exceptional champagnes, that some true standouts are still gonna be left out in the cold in a top 10 list.

I certainly wouldn’t pour it into the toilet.

[Rick.T]

I’d definetly have DP on my list, love the 96 Oeno. Making a Top 10 list is an impossible task, too subjective. But, I’d have Salon, Krug, Dom Perignon, Taittinger Comtes, Dom Ruinart, Pol Roger, Piper-Heidsieck and Bollinger at a minimum. The last 2 would be rough, so many good choices but Pierre Peters, Selosse, Gimonnet and numerous others would have to be considered.

[k_s_h_i_n]

There seems to be a form of wine snobbism towards Dom. For my palate, young Doms are great but some find them to be simple. The first young Dom I followed closely was the 90 and the ratings/view go up with a few years of cellaring.