The insanely huge American Oak thread.

[Jan_Janas]

A lot of South Australian Shiraz uses AO with that vanillan character historically quite dominant. Rioja is also a big user of AO and as I get older I’m finding myself disliking the AO character more and more (or perhaps it is just in the way that it interacts with Tempranillo). I used to buy a bit of Rioja but have pulled back a lot in recent years.

I agree, a lot of Barossa Shiraz can be quite overt in its 100% American Oak plushness and sweetness. Milkshake baby!

[Otto_Forsberg]

You’re right, I had this memory of a picture I saw of big old barrels and those are the ferment vats! I just checked their website and it explains what you said exactly. Smaller, mostly old, barrels. I don’t think I have gotten much of the typical dill/coconut flavor in any Tondonia I have tasted.

Me neither. I think younger Heredia whites show a bit more oak influence than the reds and those labels that are aged for shorter periods of time (for example Cubillo) show more oak influence than those that are aged for longer (Gran Reservas). I think young Cubillo tends to show the most oak influence of Heredia’s reds, because very rarely I taste any new oak notes in freshly released Tondonias or Bosconias and never in Gran Reservas. Cubillos might show a little bit of toasty wood and vanilla, but I’d say never any coconut notes. Only the young whites might have a short period of that Piña Colada, but I’ve noticed that it tends to disappear quite quickly. Mostly the reds taste just “woody” (in the sense of old wood), not distinctly oaky.

In this case, what’s the main difference between old American vs French oak barrels? The amount of areation? The flavor imparted should be minimal in both cases right?

Very negligible. In young oak barrels the difference can be huge (in wines that use oak excessively, the wines that are aged in Fr oak taste like Cognac while the wines that are aged in Am oak taste like Bourbon). However (depending on the toast level) the barrels lose the flavor impact in a few years and normally 3-5 yo barrels are neutral enough so that one can’t really tell the difference between an American and French oak barrel.

The amount of aeration in older barrels is quite minimal as well. In younger barrels the difference is a bit larger, but it depends on which variety of “French oak” we’re talking about. Both American oak and French Quercus robur are coarse-grained, which means more tannic and less oxygen permeability, whereas the slow-growing Quercus petraea is more tight-grained, which means more oxygen permeability and more aroma impact.

Aromatically American oak is higher in oak lactones than the French oak, which is why American oak has more aromatic impact in wine than the structurally quite similar Quercus robur.

However, after a few wines the barrel pores tend to be quite clogged and the oxygen permeability is greatly reduced compared to young barrels. The difference between an old American oak barrel and old French oak barrel is virtually nonexistent.

I guess Mel can chime in for some more in-depth knowledge on the subject!

[JMReuter]

Clarifying question: If I buy a new barrel made from American oak and it has been well toasted, and age wine in it for two years, that is clearly new oak. But, what if I use the barrel for two years and then re-toast it for use on a new vintage? Is that also “new oak”? I’m assuming that it is common to re-toast barrels, but perhaps it is not.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Clarifying question: If I buy a new barrel made from American oak and it has been well toasted, and age wine in it for two years, that is clearly new oak. But, what if I use the barrel for two years and then re-toast it for use on a new vintage? Is that also “new oak”? I’m assuming that it is common to re-toast barrels, but perhaps it is not.

I’m not sure how you can re-toast toasted wood.

However, if you remove the toasted portion and toast the new wood that was revealed underneath, yes, the old barrel effectively becomes a new barrel.

I don’t think this is particularly common in smaller barrel formats, because it isn’t particularly cheaper than buying a new barrel, but some Italian producers who use huge (and very expensive) botti casks recondition their oak vessels with this method.

[Howard_Cooper]

You guys know I’m kind of intrigued by judicious and subtle use of AO in my own winery, but that’s not why I started this thread. No, the reason is whenever we talk about AO, only two examples are ever given as examples: Ridge and Silver Oak. And up until 2015, Jordan. But what other wineries do you know of that uses it predominantly? Must be more than just those two, as 40% of most coopers yearly sales are AO. They can’t all be going to Bourbon-country…

But this is the big AO thread, spill your thoughts, most inner hates or loves here.

With Ridge Montebello, are you going to discuss how it tastes at 3 years old or at 20-25 years old? Very different things. Does anyone judge Latour by how it tastes at 3 years old?

[Casey_Hartlip]

I know a fellow who works at Vincent Arroyo and every time he opens a bottle the overt AO knocks me over.

[Mel_Knox]

About lactones in oak: it seems they decrease with seasoning in AO and increase with seasoning in French. One R and D told me that not enough research has been done in this area. Then, they always say that!

A lot of AO was cut down for railroad ties at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th centuries. Bourbon sales have taken up the new growth. Thirty years ago the Bourbon business was consuming around 800,000 barrels per year. Now it’s closer to two million. Somebody who ran a stave mill in the midwest told me that when he started, the minimum diameter for trees was 25 inches. When he retired, it was 15. So I keep expecting the price of AO to skyrocket, esp since the Bourbon people can re sell the used barrels for a good price.

About re toasting barrels: the problem is that the alcohol penetrates even deeper than the pigment. So when the pigment is scraped off, it’s the alcohol that is re toasted. Various companies have tried different approaches here, but I haven’t seen much more success.

[Michael_Martin]

I work part time in retirement at a winery. We use predominantly French oak, but we had a right bank style blend that was done in AO. We sold out of it within a year. People either couldn’t get enough of it or they didn’t care for it. It was almost that black and white.
For those that enjoyed it, almost everyone I spoke with said they also are bourbon drinkers too. Some people like that flavor profile.

[John_Glas]

Not domestic, but one that comes to my mind is López de Heredia. Pretty sure they use exclusively American oak, although not a high percentage is new.

La Rioja uses no new oak on their higher end wines. Love both bodega’s philosphy on aging their wines and releasing them later!

[M.Kaplan]

All Rioja worth a damn uses American oak.

And Ridge Monte Bello is the greatest American wine.

Whenever I drink ‘Rioja worth a damn’ I come away with the same impression; there is quality wine behind a wall of AO that I can’t abide.

[Mel_Knox]

Michael Martin makes a good point: the people who
Love AO really love it. And vice versa. Silver Oak is hugely popular with many and hated by many. You can the same about Rombauer.

[brigcampbell]

There was a thread a long time ago now about a winery using “200% new oak”…so that’s a 2 for 1

2014 Alma Rosa Pinot Noir.
https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3255655#p3255655

[Jim_F]

I think AO use is more common than many of us think. Most of the “high-end” or “luxury” bottlings make a point of using French Oak, even to the extent of specifying sources and/or cooperage. I think (again, think….I am not in the business) this has colored a lot of our thinking, well, at least colored my thinking! As mentioned, rioja and Australia use AO. In Napa, I am pretty sure Keenan uses it in their blend and Anderson’s Conn Valley has used/experimented with it. I am quite sure there are many more.

[Victor_Hong]

Here is my AO story. Years ago (late 1980s) a friend from work invited me to join him at a small Silver Oak tasting (seated and we each had multiple pours in front of us) in the basement of a fancy new wine shop. So I’m sitting there tasting the wines and someone is up talking about the wines and I turn to my friend and say, “I can’t believe someone is wearing sun lotion! It is stinking up the room!” My friend says, sun lotion? I don’t think anyone is wearing sun lotion.” I said, “what? You don’t smell the Coppertone?” My friend says, “Maureen, it’s February!” I said, “you don’t smell the coconut oil?” He started laughing. “That’s the new American oak on the Silver Oak!” And I have never been able to drink that wine since (even when I still drank cab).

That was actually the smell of (expense-account dining) money.

[brigcampbell]

All Rioja worth a damn uses American oak.

And Ridge Monte Bello is the greatest American wine.

Whenever I drink ‘Rioja worth a damn’ I come away with the same impression; there is quality wine behind a wall of AO that I can’t abide.

That made me laugh.

There’s no other wine in the world I wish I liked more. I want to say I love Rioja.

Love Spain, love the culture, love the people, love the food, love the whites, rioja… Uh… did I mention the pintxos?

[Peter_Petersen]

Mount Eden uses 50% AO for their Cab with the other half French.

[Neal.Mollen]

Wait, this thread isn’t about really big trees?

It’s about religion

[Marshall_Manning]

Another semi-unrelated comment about oak was from René Dauvissat in 2002. He said oak is very important to Chablis (I’m not saying he used AmOak tho, of course!). I believe this quote…I was fortunate to meet & barrel taste with Vincent Dauvissat a bit later than this, who made similar comments. They feel/felt that the synergy of air and the wood adds character to the wine, and helps to soften the wine…that without oak, Chablis would be too hard and too austere (referring to Chablis in the 1990s and earlier). Given that there has been a seismic shift in the ripeness and structure of grapes and wine, between the 90s/earlier and now, perhaps oak no longer has an appropriate/prominent place in ‘terroir’ based winemaking. My wines, including my Chardonnays, rarely see any new oak elements these days, because it just doesn’t seem to fit imo. I haven’t nailed my foot to the floor on this tho.

Eric, I think it’s important in any discussion of oak usage to differentiate between use of older, neutral oak versus a high percentage of new oak. I’m guessing Dauvissat, like many of the best producers, uses a low percentage of new oak as the need for barrels dictates, but that most of the oak they use is older, neutral barrels.

[Jim_F]

The Evolution of American Oak

Articles implies Turley uses 20% AO. Interesting history in here too.

[larry_schaffer]

Another semi-unrelated comment about oak was from René Dauvissat in 2002. He said oak is very important to Chablis (I’m not saying he used AmOak tho, of course!). I believe this quote…I was fortunate to meet & barrel taste with Vincent Dauvissat a bit later than this, who made similar comments. They feel/felt that the synergy of air and the wood adds character to the wine, and helps to soften the wine…that without oak, Chablis would be too hard and too austere (referring to Chablis in the 1990s and earlier). Given that there has been a seismic shift in the ripeness and structure of grapes and wine, between the 90s/earlier and now, perhaps oak no longer has an appropriate/prominent place in ‘terroir’ based winemaking. My wines, including my Chardonnays, rarely see any new oak elements these days, because it just doesn’t seem to fit imo. I haven’t nailed my foot to the floor on this tho.

Eric, I think it’s important in any discussion of oak usage to differentiate between use of older, neutral oak versus a high percentage of new oak. I’m guessing Dauvissat, like many of the best producers, uses a low percentage of new oak as the need for barrels dictates, but that most of the oak they use is older, neutral barrels.

One other important distinction - older French oak truly becomes ‘neutral’ in terms of what it imparts; older American oak can still add lots of vanilla, coconut and dill . . .