Haven’t read all the posts on this, but I wondered – has anyone tasted the wine in question? Thoughts?
Both scenarios are illegal aren’t they? Unless it’s legal to sell one wine under the label of another doing the “It’s labelled as X but it’s really Y” is over the legal line. The only exception I can think of is if the wine in the bottle is a subset of the label, i.e. the label claims it’s from a given AVA and it in fact IS, but it’s also from a specific vineyard. Then the label isn’t lying (it’s really from that AVA) it’s just imprecise (it’s not saying it’s from a named vineyard).
Two of the earlier mystery wines were both labeled as “2007 Renegade Reserve Red”, but with different back labels. It could be that a similar thing is happening here (though I’d think that would have been mentioned if it were that simple). The obvious difference though is that that Renegade is always relabeled wine, whereas Dois Irmanos is an actual producer (albeit one that’s on their first vintage).
That’s another good reason why all of this is so absurd. I realize we’ve all lost sight of the $20 wine, but if a mistake, exaggeration or flat out mis-statement was made, people are asking for a mea culpa and some closure from Jon. I’ve done repeat business with plenty of people who make a mistake and take responsibility for it. If Jon made one here, and owns it, I’m letting it go and giving him a pass. It does appear that plausible scenarios in which Jon is a victim of circumstances may be dwindling. I have liked much of the wine I’ve bought from him, for what it’s worth.
But Ron… here’s a scenario in which Jon didn’t do a thing wrong:
Dios Irmao has too much of a given vineyard designate wine and needs the cash from it. They agree to sell Jon the vineyard designate wine with the stipulation that the vineyard name cannot be associated with the wine. They agree to allow the more general label to be used. Jon agrees. He writes up the offer with notes about the reception and scores that the vineyard designate wine has gotten (this presumes that the wine has been released into the market but that DI has too much of it left). The more general label is still legal here, just not as specific as it could be.
Under that scenario neither Jon nor DI has wronged any of you whatsoever. “But why won’t he SAY that??” Well, if he’s agreed not to use the vineyard name, perhaps even agreed contractually, he can’t. Even if he didn’t sign a contract to that effect, he’d be breaking his word to tell you all what it is.
Is that what happened? No idea. Perhaps it’s not and Jon has in fact lied to you - I don’t know Jon at all and have never bought from him so I have no insight into his character in any fashion. But it’s a consistent scenario that means no one has lied to anyone, just been less than forthcoming about details. Of course, it’s much easier to get all righteous and publicly stone people, isn’t it?
I feel I’ve left open the possibility that Jon was honest and don’t feel I’ve “publicly stoned” him. Others have been a bit more accusatory than I have, IMHO. That being said, as I said earlier, I didn’t think his explanation did a lot to make people get over it (including myself). If the details of the contract are such that he has no option to do so, then I guess that’s the cost of such a contract and of adopting the mystery wine sales approach. There is no free lunch.
$40 + bones for an English Sparkler??!!?? I almost want to try some and be proven wrong!!!
This wine sounded like the first flyer I was willing to bite on in ages, until I saw the price. Silly, I can drink great champagne for less…
Or well, good champagne for less…
Let’s assume it is that wine – but even that wine doesn’t match the description Jon used - even with the broad parameters he gave. You go outside of them for it to fit. That in itself is lying IMO. And simply makes me question everything he writes.
I just got my shipping invoice from the spring. $50 per case! By contrast, most times I pay an average of the mid 30’s from either coast (K&L only charges $27). Per bottle it’s not that much more I guess, but it was a bit of a shock to open the invoice.
In any case I am certainly done with the MW series and would venture a guess that - at least as it applies to this genre of offering - Jon is (or at least should be) as well. As someone else opined, perhaps this crash landing was inevitable. I will continue to order from Garagiste…keeping it to wines that I know or can research elsewhere if the interest to order hits.
No clarification from Jon, and I don’t think there will be.
Excerpts from and e-mail exchange.
<<Jon,
These are the facts:
Mystery Wine #22 comes with a Dois Irmaos label.
…
Sam Coelho says that he sold you 500 our of 672 cases made of this wine.
I have an e-mail from him with that statement, as do others. Sam even sent a spec sheet for the wine
which is posted on the Wine Berserkers forum.
The Dois Irmaos wine does not match the description you gave for Mystery Wine #22 in at least three important ways.
You say that the claims you made are all accurate, but that is impossible unless Sam Coelho is not telling the truth.
Logistics and legality make it too implausible to consider that there are two different wines with the same Dois Irmaos label.>>
…
<<Hi Peter -
…
Regardless of what Sam has faxed or sent to everyone I know exactly what the wine is – no one is hiding anything nor wishes to do so but the wine is a Mystery Wine and therefore its origin is a mystery and will remain so (from both parties).
Sam is a great guy and he should not be put up against a lynch mob here – as I stated before, the energy expelled over this is unfounded, unnecessary and quite surprising to me as there are certain things that will never be revealed to the public in a fax, phone call or email regardless of how much research is done as it is too literal. In my opinion, there are so many worthy things in life to worry about (family, love, loss, etc) and Mystery #22 is not one of them.>>
…
Perhaps someone has heard again from Sam?
Otherwise, all I have to say is-
Oh I’m free, free, free now
I’m free from your spell
And now that it’s all over
All I can do is wish you well
He’s not sounding very good here. He’s acting like Sam is being blamed while at the same time saying he won’t reveal what the wine really is. As soon as someone says things like that and then proclaims that there are too many other things to worry about(what about your business) then they really start seeming as though they are trying to hide something.
Just tell everyone what is going on, Jon. You would be forgiven for a screw up. Right now you are acting like a man who cannot believe someone would have the audacity to question him even when there is a clear indication of an error on his part.
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Sounds exactly like a politician who has been caught with too wide a stance.
P Hickner
+1 It’s almost like watching Weiner-gate again.
I don’t want to be scammed by anyone. Honestly I think you dudes are over-reacting. I mean buying any wine is a crap shoot. I honestly believe Jon is just trying to put things in perspective (despite being a retailer). Anyways, just my honest opinion. Salut!!
BINGO!!
I am one of the “new” suckers.
I only wish I had read this thread earlier; I only hope it won’t be too much longer before I receive the wine I ordered.
(first purchase in Dec’ 10, then topped up to a case to be shipped in the spring…little did I know “spring” to Garagiste means spring of 2012 or 2013)
I don’t think he generally cares about us, as a small niche of wine geek consumers, though. If I could look into his world, I would bet his business model is built off new folks finding his list, over-ordering for a year or two, then finally giving up realizing that many of his “finds” are nothing of the sort. It doesn’t take a rocket-scientist to figure out what my experience has been of them, huh?[/quote]
This sort of fits the pattern. When I ever get my 2 bottles of le Carbonaire, I’m done. Will buy from local shops when possible, but Full Pull does have some good WA juice when not available locally. Most Garagiste offers are not that good after checking CT
In light of recent conversation, Jon makes me chuckle:
From Mystery #1-25, the “secret” labels undoubtedly cause the most conversation as it’s impossible to know exactly what’s what. The trail may seem apparent but each of the secret offers leads to an eventual Perry Mason dead-end – the trail has been covered so thoroughly that it’s a Rubik’s Cube to figure out (even though some of you have stooped to incredulous levels in an attempt to secure winery invoices or other…that are merely decoys anyway – don’t you think we thought of that in advance?).