The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

[Doug_Milch]

@john enea

a late 70’s meridian pre amp, dual mono block late 60’s McIntosh tube amps,

Great great analogy. Which, because this is an internet forum sparks this thought vis a vis alcohol :

Your audio analogy has a fundamental flaw. No one should use a a solid state pre amp with a tube amp. That’s the wine equivalent of an ice cube in a red

Please take this post in the spirit of fun …and buy a tube pre amp to enjoy along with your next case of wine

[Alan_Rath]

@G. D y e r

What about fusel alcohols and methanol? I am not convinced these are metabolized identically to EtOH, especially since methanol is implicated in making moonshiners go blind.

For the non-chemists, “fusel alcohols” are just those with higher number of carbon atoms (ethanol has 2, methanol 1). I don’t actually know what the typical concentrations of methanol, or higher alcohols is in wine. The only scientific paper I can find on methanol and wine shows a number of samples ranging from 50-200ppm methanol, which ain’t much. And the popular belief that fusel alcohols contribute to hangover seems to be pretty much unsupported scientifically. All I know is that the more I drink, regardless of what it is, the worse my hangover

[Linda_Baehr]

@Jim Swayze

@Ray Walker

…my comment was just that things don’t need to be so rigid.

I guess so, Ray. I’m certainly not suggesting we take an axe to a barrel of Siduri or anything, but our relativism has reduced all conversations about aesthetic value in wine to simple personal preference. But there really is such a thing as “too much” or “not enough.” And those aesthetic limitations are set by the material.

I think we can all agree that there can be too little (“this wine tastes like water”), but if you are making a table wine, the “too much” thing IS relative. Granted, many of us further along in our wine careers may like things not-so-over-the-top, but there is a LARGE market for over the top alcohol/fruit/oak wines. At least what many of us would consider over the top. So, for many people, there is no “too much”.

[Jim_Swayze]

Forgive the seeming flippancy. This is hard to communicate without seeming a jerk. Not my intention.

There is a large market for all kinds of tasteless things, Linda. Commercial appeal has never been a good standard for aesthetic beauty.

[Tom_Symonette]

@Alan Rath

@G. D y e r

What about fusel alcohols and methanol? I am not convinced these are metabolized identically to EtOH, especially since methanol is implicated in making moonshiners go blind.

For the non-chemists, “fusel alcohols” are just those with higher number of carbon atoms (ethanol has 2, methanol 1). I don’t actually know what the typical concentrations of methanol, or higher alcohols is in wine. The only scientific paper I can find on methanol and wine shows a number of samples ranging from 50-200ppm methanol, which ain’t much. And the popular belief that fusel alcohols contribute to hangover seems to be pretty much unsupported scientifically. All I know is that the more I drink, regardless of what it is, the worse my hangover

For anyone truly interested in this, check pp101-103, in the classic wine analysis book Wine Analysis and Production:

Table Wine range 140-420 mg/L (Amerine and Ough, 1980); Dessert Wine 100-1000+ mg/L (Muller et al 1993)
Factors contributing to production of Fusels in fermentation: Yeasts involved; Temperature, 02 levels, suspended solids levels & nutritional status (including amounts of amino acids and fermentable sugars), and pH.

I’ll leave the health effects up to someone who knows what they’re talking about, but Dr. Muller’s lectures indicated that there’s a legitimate health issue with fusels.

[Carl_Jensen]

@Jim Swayze

Forgive the seeming flippancy. This is hard to communicate without seeming a jerk. Not my intention.

There is a large market for all kinds of tasteless things, Linda. Commercial appeal has never been a good standard for aesthetic beauty.

You really are coming off as a pompous old world wine snob.

[Alan_Rath]

@Jim Swayze

There is a large market for all kinds of tasteless things, Linda. Commercial appeal has never been a good standard for aesthetic beauty.

Jim, we would likely agree on many of those. But I’ll also bet we would not on others In particular, the kinds of wines we are talking about here are very well made, with attention to every detail by experienced growers and winemakers. Your argument would apply better, I think, in a comparison of $3 jug wine to the boutique wines everyone talks about here (and it’s not slam dunk that some of the $3 wines aren’t reasonably decent these days).

Marcassin can’t be said to be better or worse than DRC. That’s a matter of personal preference and taste. Both are equally well made wines, from vineyard to bottle. There are probably as many people who would prefer either over the other, there simply isn’t an absolute better or worse. But maybe I’m still missing what you’re trying to say.

Regards

[Linda_Baehr]

@Jim Swayze

Forgive the seeming flippancy. This is hard to communicate without seeming a jerk. Not my intention.

There is a large market for all kinds of tasteless things, Linda. Commercial appeal has never been a good standard for aesthetic beauty.

Wow. I’m not sure who died and left you the arbiter of taste, but I wish they hadn’t.

Taste can be applied to many things. It’s like my father always says “all women are beautiful, but some are more beautiful that others”. There are many of us who find things appealing, even if they are not “aesthetically beautiful”.

[Jim_Swayze]

Acknowledging objective standards for taste doesn’t make me the arbiter! I’m duller than one of my six year old’s crayons when it comes to taste! My socks don’t even match.

Do you agree that what is tasteful is not subject to a majority vote, that commercial success is not a good, reliable indicator of aesthetic value?

[Linda_Baehr]

@Jim Swayze

Acknowledging objective standards for taste doesn’t make me the arbiter! I’m duller than one of my six year old’s crayons when it comes to taste! My socks don’t even match.

Do you agree that what is tasteful is not subject to a majority vote, that commercial success is not a good, reliable indicator of aesthetic value?

Apples and oranges.
No, I do NOT believe that commercial success is an indicator of aesthetic value, but I also do not agree that everyone should have the same definition of what aesthetic value or beauty, whatever that might mean.

[Jim_Swayze]

Again, please see this book. The intro is particularly germane to this conversation.

There is no enemy other than the man who is not open to everything.

Closing of the American Mind - Allan Bloom - Google Books" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jeff_Brinkman]

@Adam Lee

I can’t help but wonder if it wouldn’t help to look at this from another direction. This thread got me thinking about a recent email conversation that I had with Kevin Harvey (hoping for his input here) – about Nebbiolo – and how there’s didn’t get ripe in 2010 and they chose not to harvest it.

Obviously Kevin picks at fairly low sugar levels in many cases, so he’s not biased against low glu/fru numbers. But obviously there was something about the fruit that wasn’t ripe – or wasn’t going to get ripe. My bad for not asking him more about it. ---- But perhaps it would be instructive to look at what would make someone say that fruit isn’t ripe, and that might provide us insight into what is ripe and what might be too ripe? –

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Not Kevin, but it’s an easy answer. When we picked our Horseshoe Syrah on November 4th, the Nebbiolo hadn’t gone through veraison yet! So, for us, ripe means it at least has to change color…

[Alan_Rath]

Jim, looks like an interesting book, and one that I’ll now buy and read. But from what I can tell from just a cursory read of some of the introductory comments, it doesn’t apply at all to the discussion here. There simply is no “right or wrong” to be found in one’s choice of wine styles. Again, let me say that I have my own personal preferences, and yes, I try to lobby others to view wine the way I do; but I’m not offended when they don’t, and I don’t subscribe to the notion that a ripe Paso syrah is of any less quality than a tight, reserved Cote Rotie. They both can be excellent wines (and in fact I drink them both, though prefer the Cote Rotie a larger fraction of the time).
Regards

[Chris_Seiber]

I think that items like wine, art, literature and music have both subjective and objective dimensions.

If you were to say that it’s purely subjective, then that would mean a person who thinks my two year old’s finger painting is greater art than Rembrandt is equally right, or that a person who thinks my six year old’s piano playing is better than Vladimir Horowitz is equally right, or that a person who thinks an article about the Kardashians from People Magazine is greater literature than Les Miserables is equally right. There are objective dimensions present, particularly the skill and difficulty of the composition and performance.

At the same time, there are subjective dimensions present as well. I don’t think there is a purely objective answer to “who is a greater painter, Rembrandt, Da Vinci or Van Gogh?” or to “who is a greater author, Dickens or Hemingway?” Among those who have similar objective measures, it becomes a highly subjective matter for the viewer/reader based on their preferences, perspective, etc.

Applying this to wine, I would not entertain the argument that Gallo Hearty Burgundy is an equally great wine to DRC, but I would say that it is highly subjective whether you prefer Pavie to Pichon Lalande, or prefer Copain to Siduri.

And before anyone jumps on me about the objective dimension, (1) I am not claiming that I am the arbiter of the objective dimensions, just that they exist and people can approach them with study and education and experience, and (2) none of that means that a person isn’t well within their rights to turn down a glass of DRC and have Gallo Hearty Burgundy instead, or to choose to listen to a CD of my son playing the piano instead of Horowitz.

[Paul_H_Galli]

@Alan Rath

@A Wei

@Paul H Galli

It is my belief (based on a TON of tasting over the years), that high alcohol wines produce a lot of secondary alcohols that cause headaches.

A very interesting thought. Can anyone shed further light on secondary alcohol production in higher alcohol wines?

No, I think Paul should probably stick to engineering Hangover symptoms are pretty much directly related to how much alcohol you drink, not the delivery vehicle. The two main effects are the metabolism of ethanol to the more “toxic” acetaldehyde, and dehydration due to the indirect diuretic effect of ethanol.

I’m pretty confident that if Paul drinks 50% more of a wine that has 2/3 the ABV of a higher alcohol wine, he’ll feel the same effects the next morning

This engineer knows (again by lots of experience, 35+ years) that if I drink the same amount of total alcohol of a low alcohol wine as the same total alcohol of high alcohol wine, the effects of the high alcohol wine are DEFINITELY more pronounced in my case. In my individual case, Mr Scientist, you are decidedly wrong.

Hence my theory.
I suppose it’s possible a higher octane wine is higher in Histamines or sulfite or who knows what?

But the bad effects of high octane wine are unmistakable in my case…

TTT

[Adam_Lee]

@Tom Symonette

@Alan Rath

@G. D y e r

What about fusel alcohols and methanol? I am not convinced these are metabolized identically to EtOH, especially since methanol is implicated in making moonshiners go blind.

For the non-chemists, “fusel alcohols” are just those with higher number of carbon atoms (ethanol has 2, methanol 1). I don’t actually know what the typical concentrations of methanol, or higher alcohols is in wine. The only scientific paper I can find on methanol and wine shows a number of samples ranging from 50-200ppm methanol, which ain’t much. And the popular belief that fusel alcohols contribute to hangover seems to be pretty much unsupported scientifically. All I know is that the more I drink, regardless of what it is, the worse my hangover

For anyone truly interested in this, check pp101-103, in the classic wine analysis book Wine Analysis and Production:

Table Wine range 140-420 mg/L (Amerine and Ough, 1980); Dessert Wine 100-1000+ mg/L (Muller et al 1993)
Factors contributing to production of Fusels in fermentation: Yeasts involved; Temperature, 02 levels, suspended solids levels & nutritional status (including amounts of amino acids and fermentable sugars), and pH.

I’ll leave the health effects up to someone who knows what they’re talking about, but Dr. Muller’s lectures indicated that there’s a legitimate health issue with fusels.

Tom,

Thanks for this. It is a very informative and helpful link.

Let me put my $.02 in for stressed ferments. We see decidely different chemistry for ferments that are different based on lower nutrient levels---- specifically, higher reductive character, higher VA levels, and more stuck ferements/residual sugar levels. Fusels in ferments would go along with this.

Interestingly enough, this year in CA produced extremely high nutrient levels – both pre- and post- heat spike. The heat seemed to cause sugars to soar but didn’t change the pH levels or nutrient levels nearly as much — thus I could see this being a year that would result in later picking having higher alcs but not as stressed ferments as opposed to other vintages where higher sugars are the result of longer growing seasons and resulting lower nutrients. – In other words, I bet the Troll can drink more of the 10 Pinots at higher alcs without the headaches…good for him!

A lot of speculation here, btw, but fun to do.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

[Alan_Rath]

@Paul H Galli

I suppose it’s possible a higher octane wine is higher in Histamines or sulfite or who knows what?

Maybe it’s something as simple as when you drink a lower alcohol wine it takes longer, and you simultaneously ingest more water in proportion to etoh? My own experience is that it doesn’t matter much if I get drunk on rum and coke, or Chave. Either way I’m drunk, and I’ll feel lousy the next day Not discounting the possibility that there are other contaminants that might exacerbate things, just that when I hear hoof beats I like to think horses, not zebras
Cheers

[G_Greenbaum]

@Andrew P. Vingiello

@Michael Powers

Adam seems very sincere in his beliefs, but he also seems to believe that there is nothing wrong with extremely ripe wines, that the idea of natural wine is some sort of seditious plot against domestic winegrowers, and that the very concept of a movement towards lighter wines is anathema and should be shouted down. I do not agree with him on any of these things.

Michael…can you tell me for sure where this so called “movement” started? Was it the chicken or the egg? The winemaker or the consumer? I quite often feel this “movement” is about selling articles and selling wine…whether or not you believe in what you write or what you make. Please…educate me.

Hey Andrew- I’m not really sure where the movement started though I suspect it was in France coupled with the the teachings of Jules Chauvet, but I first became interested in so called natural wines after sampling a few Cru Beaujolais, namely Lapierre, Breton and Thevenet back in the 90s. I was absolutely floored when I discovered these wines were mostly, unsulphured and farmed responsibly (organic and sustainable). The ABV was under 14% with spontaneous fermentations and these wines intrigued me. Over the years I have sampled more and more wines made in this style like those brought in by Joe Dressner, Jose Pastor and Savio Soares. I am a fan, no doubt. You certainly are entitled to think whatever you like, but I would argue that some time spent with Jean Paul Brun or Laureano Serres or Pedro Pecina or Eric Texier or Hank Beckmeyer or Abe Schoner ( I could go on) and I bet you might have a different opinion. If any of these guys are calling their wine natural as purely a marketing ploy, color me naive and gullible.

[Wes_Barton]

@Jim Swayze

@Alan Rath

As Brian, Adam, Ray and others have said, live and let live, there is no right or wrong, just personal choice.

I’m perfectly happy to let live; again, I don’t advocate torching the cellar at Marcassin or arresting Adam Lee. But to suggest that taste is nothing more than a matter of personal choice is a very modern and very wrong assumption. But it’s so ingrained in our cultural psyche, we usually have great difficulty even imagining an alternative.

I realize this isn’t the place for this conversation, but I will leave you with a humble suggestion. For better perspective on this very modern assumption that everyone is free to determine right and wrong for oneself – one that will look as silly to us in 80 years as our great grandparents’ assumptions look to us now – please read the first few chapters of Allan Bloom’s 1987 classic Closing of the American Mind. Heck, read the whole book. It’s pretty stimulating and I think well work the time it takes to read.

Peace.

How do you explain different palate types, different sensitivities, different fetishes, different aversions, etc.?

I’d think characterizing those things as choice is incorrect. But they certainly are individual and real.

[Tom_Symonette]

@Adam Lee

Tom,

Thanks for this. It is a very informative and helpful link.

My pleasure Adam