The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

[Ryan_Kilkenney]

@Bill Tex Landreth

@TomHill

I thought Adam Lee made a very good point in his comments reply.
Tom

Indeed.

+3. It would be an odd market if most wines weren’t at or near their peak when released, which is when most consumers drink them. Wines that need to be coddled for 10+ years to come around will always be a niche.

[gene_keenan]

@Adam Lee

Go away to Napa for a lunch meeting and an entire thread breaks out (or as Jamie would have us believe, from the thread title, a great moral uprising against an occupying army and their unimaginable horrors – )

Since I’ve been oft mentioned, let me jump in directly.

Michael, I apologize if you have found my comments to be too sensitive. Forgive me if I go briefly astray, but let me give you some of my personal background. The classes in college where I learned the most were always small group History classes (13 students or so). We debated Rousseau, Montesquieu, Kierkergaard, etc. as if they held real sway over our lives – and we never failed to challenge any assumption or hypothesis made by a fellow classmate. For a young man raised Southern Baptist, who was taught to see the world in black and white, this was incredibly liberating (continuing with the resistance theme). Rarely were the real disagreements about the meat of the issue, but around the edges is where all of our theories became more tenuous. — I’ve continued down this path in life and in wine, questioning all — and hope others question me as well, with no animus by either party. ---- What is often missed is that which is hidden, which are very kind emails between me and Jamie, Kevin, and others with which I take issue philosophically. —So, again, I apologize if I have appeared overly sensitive by expressing positions that I hold and by questioning others.

That being said, I don’t intend to stop. I think that in this age of wine writer power dissemination, it is increasingly important to question statements that are being thrown around as if they were fact. In Jordan’s piece, for example, he does state that Raj Paar “refuses to stock new-world pinot noirs and chardonnays that clock in at higher than 14 percent.” A look at only the first page of the RN74 wine list online shows the Tyler Chardonnay (14.2 on the label) and the Neyers Pinot Noir (14.4 on the label). Shouldn’t something like that investigated for its veracity before being printed?

As far as my specific comment on Jordan’s article — his assertion was that as wine becomes a mealtime staple then people will turn to lower alcohol wines. I don’t necessarily agree. First off, Americans eat differently (preferring sweeter beverages, spicier foods, etc) than Europeans. But more than that, for wine to become a mealtime staple it will have to become significantly less expensive, something that neither those making lower alcohol wines nor those making higher alcohol wines have found a way to do.

As to the heart of the matter, on alcohol, — I find myself consistently disappointed that the focus is on alcohol rather than ripeness. Look, Jamie’s alcohol numbers are lower and lower, but are those grapes riper if the vineyard is in a cooler setting (btw, doesn’t Jamie make several Pinot Noirs? Aren’t those numbers from differing vineyards — if so, so what? – I could say I picked at 30.7. 27.8, 25.7, 23.8, and 20.2 all in 2010)? Honestly, I have made overripe Pinot Noir at less than 22 brix and less than ripe Pinot at 33 brix. – The alcohol thing is, IMHO, an overly simplified way of looking at ripeness.

Finally, as much as Jim’s call to nature as the arbitrer of aesthetic standards might pull at the heartstrings, I think it is unduly vague. To what degree does the sugar of a grape which is allowed to hang on the vine fight against nature?

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Adam, another point that is always made but rarely investigated is the fact that Randy Dunn is a low alcohol proponent but often gets there through the use of spinning cones or reverse osmosis. That’s a different debate but I think the point is valid in this discussion.

Randy Dunn Interview - Howell Mountain ~ Napa Valley" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“The outspoken Dunn, in this interview with Appellation America’s Napa Valley Regional Correspondent, Alan Goldfarb, rails against high-alcohol wines that are in vogue; and acknowledges that his finished wines come in at under 14 percent because he dealcoholizes his wines via reverse osmosis.”

[Berry_Crawford]

@gene keenan

Adam, another point that is always made but rarely investigated is the fact that Randy Dunn is a low alcohol proponent but often gets there through the use of spinning cones or reverse osmosis. That’s a different debate but I think the point is valid in this discussion.

Randy Dunn Interview - Howell Mountain ~ Napa Valley" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“The outspoken Dunn, in this interview with Appellation America’s Napa Valley Regional Correspondent, Alan Goldfarb, rails against high-alcohol wines that are in vogue; and acknowledges that his finished wines come in at under 14 percent because he dealcoholizes his wines via reverse osmosis.”

Wow, thats a shock, but I guess I shouldnt be surprised. Ive heard whispers that some Burgundy producers use spining cones and reverse osmosis. I wish i knew which ones if true.

[larry_schaffer]

@Berry Crawford

@gene keenan

Adam, another point that is always made but rarely investigated is the fact that Randy Dunn is a low alcohol proponent but often gets there through the use of spinning cones or reverse osmosis. That’s a different debate but I think the point is valid in this discussion.

Randy Dunn Interview - Howell Mountain ~ Napa Valley" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“The outspoken Dunn, in this interview with Appellation America’s Napa Valley Regional Correspondent, Alan Goldfarb, rails against high-alcohol wines that are in vogue; and acknowledges that his finished wines come in at under 14 percent because he dealcoholizes his wines via reverse osmosis.”

Wow, thats a shock, but I guess I shouldnt be surprised. Ive heard whispers that some Burgundy producers use spining cones and reverse osmosis. I wish i knew which ones if true.

Ahhh, one of the ‘dirty little secrets’ of our wine industry, and one that no one (other than Dunn) apparently is willing to admit to . . . and yet the machines throughout CA typically are overbooked. Hmmmm.

Begs the question -again- whether the end justifies the means to get there or not. There are many on this board and elsewhere who seem to want things done in an interventionist way, yet are willing to accept intervention such as RO to remove alcohol OR to concentrate musts, simply because wineries do not admit to such use - and are not required ever to do so. The same could be said for blending varieties but not stating that they are doing so, etc . . .

Off the soap box - back to your regularly scheduled post.

[Nathan_V]

@Andrew P. Vingiello

@Michael Powers

Adam seems very sincere in his beliefs, but he also seems to believe that there is nothing wrong with extremely ripe wines, that the idea of natural wine is some sort of seditious plot against domestic winegrowers, and that the very concept of a movement towards lighter wines is anathema and should be shouted down. I do not agree with him on any of these things.

Michael…can you tell me for sure where this so called “movement” started? Was it the chicken or the egg? The winemaker or the consumer? I quite often feel this “movement” is about selling articles and selling wine…whether or not you believe in what you write or what you make. Please…educate me.

I don’t know if there is a “movement” of people marching in the streets, but there is most definitely a group of (open minded mind you) highly passionate wine consumers that would like to see wines made in a different paradigm. I’m among them. I’ve made wine and understand the chemistry and understand that shit like ripe seeds is BS.

I’m also pretty fond of numbers. Numbers don’t lie, people just lie about numbers.

Andrew, I’ve had wines of yours and Adams that I’ve liked. Your argument that you have to make wines at a high ABV to get “phenolic ripeness” just doesn’t sit with me. It’s a term of art, not science.

I’m looking forward to tasting at Arnot-Roberts on Friday. None other than Eric Texier recently told me that the Clary Ranch was one of the best syrahs he’s tried this year.

I’m also a lot bigger than Eric Asimov, so I don’t care about how it makes me feel. Wine with high alcohol almost always tastes shitty and is a terrible accompaniment to food. I prefer to drink low alcohol and then have some Scotch, Bourbon, or Armagnac.

[Nathan_V]

@Adam Lee

I think it is unduly vague. To what degree does the sugar of a grape which is allowed to hang on the vine fight against nature?

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Vague? Pot and kettle.

[G_D_y_e_r]

@Nathan V.

I don’t know if there is a “movement” of people marching in the streets, but there is most definitely a group of (open minded mind you) highly passionate wine consumers that would like to see wines made in a different paradigm. I’m among them. I’ve made wine and understand the chemistry and understand that shit like ripe seeds is BS.

What are your thoughts on this? This does seem to be a point that is not universally agreed upon.

I’ve always wondered if producers were less focused on super-extraction if perhaps super-ripeness wouldn’t be necessary. The idea of super-ripeness seems to be to get rid of any ‘green’ quality in the fruit, stems and seeds. But non-saignee roses are made from grapes that would be deemed under-ripe for red wines. Maybe if red wines in California were made somewhere between the super-extraction style and rose, it wouldn’t be necessary to lignify everything and chase away every last methoxypyrazine molecule.

[Adam_Lee]

@Nathan V.

@Adam Lee

I think it is unduly vague. To what degree does the sugar of a grape which is allowed to hang on the vine fight against nature?

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Vague? Pot and kettle.

Nathan,

I am sorry you have found my comments vague. Let me try to help with that. My thinking was that, if nature is to determine the boundaries of aesthetic value, then how is letting a grape hang on the vine longer (which is what nature would do if humans didn’t pick it) unnatural?

If you have other questions that I have been vague on that have specific answers please let me know. Being that you are a numbers guy, ff you want to know brix, pH, ta, YAN, techniques, etc etc on any of our wines ask away. ---- Other questions, by their nature, may have vague answers but I will try and be more clear about my thoughts.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

[Michae1_P0wers]

@Adam Lee

Michael, I apologize if you have found my comments to be too sensitive. Forgive me if I go briefly astray, but let me give you some of my personal background. The classes in college where I learned the most were always small group History classes (13 students or so). We debated Rousseau, Montesquieu, Kierkergaard, etc. as if they held real sway over our lives – and we never failed to challenge any assumption or hypothesis made by a fellow classmate. For a young man raised Southern Baptist, who was taught to see the world in black and white, this was incredibly liberating (continuing with the resistance theme). Rarely were the real disagreements about the meat of the issue, but around the edges is where all of our theories became more tenuous. — I’ve continued down this path in life and in wine, questioning all — and hope others question me as well, with no animus by either party. ---- What is often missed is that which is hidden, which are very kind emails between me and Jamie, Kevin, and others with which I take issue philosophically. —So, again, I apologize if I have appeared overly sensitive by expressing positions that I hold and by questioning others.

That being said, I don’t intend to stop.

Apologies were neither sought nor wanted, and I wouldn’t expect you to stop. I think I made it clear that I, and most here I am sure, are perfectly respectful of you taking a firm position that you believe in with regards to this matter. And I have no doubt that there is a good healthy exchange amongst the winemakers here and elsewhere. There may appear to be slightly vitriolic exchanges at time, but I would hardly suggest someone not champion what they believe. I do however have a different view (it would appear) on many of these issues, despite lacking the technical background to debate it on the numerical levels often discussed. In any case, enjoy your dialectic and may it lead you somewhere good.

[Adam_Lee]

I can’t help but wonder if it wouldn’t help to look at this from another direction. This thread got me thinking about a recent email conversation that I had with Kevin Harvey (hoping for his input here) – about Nebbiolo – and how there’s didn’t get ripe in 2010 and they chose not to harvest it.

Obviously Kevin picks at fairly low sugar levels in many cases, so he’s not biased against low glu/fru numbers. But obviously there was something about the fruit that wasn’t ripe – or wasn’t going to get ripe. My bad for not asking him more about it. ---- But perhaps it would be instructive to look at what would make someone say that fruit isn’t ripe, and that might provide us insight into what is ripe and what might be too ripe? –

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

[Tom_Symonette]

@Nathan V.

I’ve made wine and understand the chemistry and understand that shit like ripe seeds is BS.

Please enlighten me on this point.

[Tom_Symonette]

@Adam Lee

My thinking was that, if nature is to determine the boundaries of aesthetic value, then how is letting a grape hang on the vine longer (which is what nature would do if humans didn’t pick it) unnatural?

If I understand the point about hanging on the vine longer, the unnatural part starts after the humans pick it.

[Ian_Brand]

@Tom Symonette

@Nathan V.

I’ve made wine and understand the chemistry and understand that shit like ripe seeds is BS.

Please enlighten me on this point.

This is kind of a yes and no point. Yes its true that seed “ripeness”, like brix levels, is only a secondary indicator – a kind of mile marker. But having green seeds can affect things like how long a maceration you can run. I’ve never seen a well-maintained vineyard that I would pick without some browning on the seeds.

[Tom_Symonette]

@Ian Brand

@Tom Symonette

@Nathan V.

I’ve made wine and understand the chemistry and understand that shit like ripe seeds is BS.

Please enlighten me on this point.

This is kind of a yes and no point. Yes its true that seed “ripeness”, like brix levels, is only a secondary indicator – a kind of mile marker. But having green seeds can affect things like how long a maceration you can run. I’ve never seen a well-maintained vineyard that I would pick without some browning on the seeds.

Thanks Ian. In my experience, and with a significant amount of wine chemistry background, a comment like Nathan’s is BS. But my mind is open to learn why I shouldn’t care about green seeds in an alcohol saturated must.

[k_s_h_i_n]

I thought most new Cal pinot followers were attracted by sweet up front fruit, so it really wasn’t the wine critics who dictated the newer style. As Bob said on his BBs, the BBers especially with very strong opinions represent very small portion of wine drinkers. If the wines are selling relatively well, is there a really good reason to change the style?

I heard some good things about SA reds but I have not yet had one without some green. I don’t have any technical background but if the growing season is extremely hot, can you really reach the phenolic maturity without having high % alcohol? I am a Burg whore but I don’t see any issues with different style of domestic pinot other than Aubert at 16+% alcohol which to me is too hot.

Although I have never met Keith L, I enjoy reading his TNs. He recently posted a glowing review on Marcel Lapierre Special Cuvee which seemed to have close to 15% alcohol. (I believe the label listed at 14.5%) I posted that the fruit expression is very similar to modern Cal Pinot and someone, not Keith, got really upset. These wines are a lot of similar characters including high % alcohol yet some seem to show bias.

[Gordon_Fitz]

To me this all harkens backs to the late 90s and a conversation I had with one of the young Cal Davis winemakers. We were discussing a certain cab, and I told him I liked the cab but thought it needed a couple of years of bottle time. He said they (the winemaker) had then obviously picked the grapes to green and unripe, that every bottle of wine should be ready to drink when bottle (outside of bottle shock). We were discussing Napa fruit and I said that from the harvest report all the grapes had gotten well over 100 days of hang time. He said "Not enought, Napa fruit should be getting between 120-140 days of hang time to get ripe.

The conversation went on with him stating “the American consumer, in general, does not want to age wine. They want to buy it in the store and have it at full optimal drinking upon purchase. That requires even riper fruit.” I thought he was a bit loopy, but little did I realize that he was declaring the future of American wines with increasingly riper fruit, which yields increasingly higher alcohol. The Cal Davis influence is omni-presence and omnipotent in American winemaking unfortunately,imo, but many wine buyers love it.

I thought then, and still do today that 1994 produced the best wines of that decade. He said too much green fruit was picked!

[Jim_Swayze]

@Alan Rath

As Brian, Adam, Ray and others have said, live and let live, there is no right or wrong, just personal choice.

I’m perfectly happy to let live; again, I don’t advocate torching the cellar at Marcassin or arresting Adam Lee. But to suggest that taste is nothing more than a matter of personal choice is a very modern and very wrong assumption. But it’s so ingrained in our cultural psyche, we usually have great difficulty even imagining an alternative.

I realize this isn’t the place for this conversation, but I will leave you with a humble suggestion. For better perspective on this very modern assumption that everyone is free to determine right and wrong for oneself – one that will look as silly to us in 80 years as our great grandparents’ assumptions look to us now – please read the first few chapters of Allan Bloom’s 1987 classic Closing of the American Mind. Heck, read the whole book. It’s pretty stimulating and I think well work the time it takes to read.

Peace.

[Adam_Lee]

@Jim Swayze

@Alan Rath

As Brian, Adam, Ray and others have said, live and let live, there is no right or wrong, just personal choice.

I’m perfectly happy to let live; again, I don’t advocate torching the cellar at Marcassin or arresting Adam Lee. But to suggest that taste is nothing more than a matter of personal choice is a very modern and very wrong assumption. But it’s so ingrained in our cultural psyche, we usually have great difficulty even imagining an alternative.

I realize this isn’t the place for this conversation, but I will leave you with a humble suggestion. For better perspective on this very modern assumption that everyone is free to determine right and wrong for oneself – one that will look as silly to us in 80 years as our great grandparents’ assumptions look to us now – please read the first few chapters of Allan Bloom’s 1987 classic Closing of the American Mind. Heck, read the whole book. It’s pretty stimulating and I think well work the time it takes to read.

Peace.

Yeah, I screw it up big time because sometimes I drink really ripe Pinot Noir and listen to “Exile on Main Street.” (For those not in the know, Mick Jagger was a veritable antichrist in Bloom’s philosophy).

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

[Jim_Swayze]

Ok, I do advocate arresting Adam.

[John_Cabot]

Jim, so you are saying that we all should be eating the same things, drinking the same styles of wine and listening to the same kinds of music???

Where does that leave regional divercities? Sounds awefully boring to me, weather it’s right or wrong.