A $25 bottle of wine would ruin a $300 meal for me.
I don’t like overpaying for wine at a restaurant and we’re of relatively modest means so typically try to find something that will get a good bottle that goes well with the meal, in the $75-$150 range. So when dining out I think typically the meal is more of the experience than the wine.
At home we love to cook and make some very nice meals and that’s when we open the really good wine. So at home I would say the wine experience is typically equal to or greater than the food experience.
I’m sitting here trying to figure out how Masa is getting to $1k. Sushi Noz is 400 and is mind-blowingly good. Sushi Zo in the Village is 250 and is great (the nodoguro we had there the other night was sick). Noda is 315. So many exceptional places in NY, and obviously all obscenely expensive, but how do you charge 2.5x Noz? Is it all Wagyu/Truffles/Caviar/Abalone? Hard to see that there’s that kind of premium in the fish.
Masa has been like that for over 10 years. And it’s not 1k, it’s easily $2k with all the upsell they do. They now include the $200 dollar beef addition, but then they will often offer king crab for $250 and truffles for another $250, and don’t forget, they don’t accept tips, but they automatically add a 20% “Service Charge” which is non-discretionary.
The place is good, but it’s a ripoff. Just like you say, there are better options out there. It’s kinda like Ultraviolet by Paul Pairet in Shanghai, people go there to say they’ve been there.
I’d generally rather avoid $300 bottles and $300 dinners. I usually find rapidly diminishing returns on meals over $150 and wines over about $80, assuming I can be selective on the restaurant and wine bottle.
I’d probably rather have a $50-$80 bottle of wine with a $25 pizza than a $25 bottle of wine with a $50-$80 dinner. Part of that is simply because I think of pizza, despite it’s humble reputation, as one of the best foods that exist (and, by contrast, there are very few great $25 wines)…and Pizza is a particularly good match with great Sangio wines (of which there are many best-in-class examples in the $50-$80 range).
Part of the problem with all of the posts on this thread is the use of $25, since there aren’t many great wines or foods at or under $25.
I’d rather hear answers to whether folks would prefer a $130 meal with a $65 bottle of wine or a $65 meal with a $130 bottle. I’d prefer the former.
In addition to the aforementioned collectability, durability, and portability.
Restaurants produce in 24 hour cycles and wineries produce in vintages. The investment and risk are orders of magnitude apart.
A chef only produces a single nights food, poor outcomes disappear immediately, and the food can be replaced the following night. (No disrespect, I spent 17 years working in restaurants. It’s an extremely challenging business, both physically and fiscally.)
The winery brings the entire years production in during one brief period. There is one opportunity for production and no mulligans, fiscally or otherwise. Historically Grand Cru vineyards were sites that both out competed their peer group and also mitigated poor vintage conditions(to some extent). That advantage, when speaking about an entire year’s revenue, increased the value of the land to far beyond what almost all other agricultural crops need. The only things that I can think of that rival the pricing tend to be items like Alba truffles that are both singular and extremely limited in availability.
Another factor is the establishment, and documentation, of quality of the vineyard itself. With 600+ years of documentation, proving consistent quality over centuries, elite vineyards are guaranteed beyond individual skills(chefs are limited to their own skill sets, Vosne-Romanee is Vosne-Romanee for generations now). That creates collector and consumer confidence, and combined with the delineation of terroir makes the wines both desirable and safe enough to risk larger investment in(even if you’re just going to drink it).
I think you are wildly underestimating the quality of a lot of $25 wines, and overestimating the quality increase at the $50-$80 level.
As for your final question, I would much rather spend $40+ on some really fantastic ingredients, and cook the meal myself, and have it with the wine that works the best with the food, regardless of price.
I would agree with those who would in general rather have a $300 dinner and a $25 wine vs the other way around. although I would argue there are exceptions that prove the rule.
but I would argue that the experience of a $300 meal is so much different from a $25 meal that they almost dont even resemble each other. compare a $25 sushi meal with an omakase meal. even though theyre technically both sushi…
if you have thoughtfully chosen a $25 bottle of wine, you can get something that is well crafted with intention that will elevate the meal, further the enjoyment, and perhaps even bond you with friends, just like a $300 bottle will (I would actually even argue that the more expensive wine has a higher chance of drawing attention from the meal rather than elevate, compared to the $25 bottle)
now obviously there exist $25 meals that blow your socks off, and that blend seamlessly with $300 wines. personally, I like the middle ground, a great $100 meal and a great $100 bottle of wine! haha
Trust me I’ve drunken my share of $25 wine. Cases upon cases. I love them for daily drinkers. That said, there are no thoughtfully chosen $25 bottles of wine that even remotely measure up to many $75 wines let alone some “thoughtful chosen” $150 or $300 bottles.
As much as there are some great $25 wines, I agree with you. I love Thibaud Bourdignon’s Anjou Blanc, but it’s not in the same league as his Clos de la Hutte bottling. As much as Ghislaine Barthod’s “Les bon batons” is a lovely entry level, I would probably never choose it over her Chambolle-Musigny.
Clos des Briords, Thivin, and Merkelbach are great choices around $25, but most of my favorite $25 wines are good wines. But not that many $25 wines do what great wines do.
Really thoughtful analysis. I am one that skews my spending towards the meal over the wine. To be fair, while I have had the chance to eat in some world class restaurants, I’ve never had the chance to try a bottle of wine that would be called the same. If I had, maybe my opinions would change.
You make a really good case about the relative value of a fine dining experience and something I should consider more in my calculus. A meal at a 3* restaurant can easily go 4-5 hours, involve the skills of multiple talented people, and usually takes place in some pretty high-end real estate. That’s before even considering the costs and effort associated with sourcing the best product. I guess that really does shake out to some solid value for the money.
Some of the most pleasant evenings I’ve ever had have been a beautiful dinner, with solid (but not world class) wine, shared with friends that love the same things. Getting all those things to line up in one single night is TOUGH and the rarity is probably part of what makes those experiences rare and memorable.
im definitely not trying to argue that theyre the same. but I do think in a dinner setting, they can fulfill a similar enough role: elevate the meal as a whole. im not saying that a $25 wine is gonna make you start writing poetry to describe it or anything for sure. however, I dont think anyone would ever mistake the roles of a $25 dinner compared to a several hundred dollar one.
my thought process is more this: you could walk into a $500pp restaurant, order a wine that you could buy off the shelf for $25, and do really well for the night as a whole, and not feel like the wine was out of place. to use Marcus’ example, I dont think I would be sad drinking Bon Batons at Le Bernadin, in terms of the overall cohesiveness and enjoyment of the meal. but if I was ordering from the Halal guys, I think Les Fuees would feel out of place. maybe it would be different if Les Fuees wasn’t the single most expensive wine in my collection by a bit, as it wouldn’t be on as much of a pedestal. but, to be fair, Le Bernadin is also at the top of the list for my most expensive meals.
$25 will buy some pretty extraordinary dishes, but no extraordinary wines that I can think of.
Siu Mai
Cheeseburgers at Squires
Sea Urchin sashimi
Tarte Flambee at Benoit.
Popeyes spicy chicken thighs that have just emerged from the fried.
Flannery hanger steaks
Flor del Basc pizza at Tramonto
Meatballs at the Cookery
And that is local stuff (apart from Benoit, which is too good not to include).
DRC from barrel … perhaps you’re right, but given supply / demand I wonder if there wouldn’t also be a big premium over production cost for a place in line. Maybe not as big as with the bottles but still big.
What is the rough ratio of price to production cost (all in including rent labour etc) for ultra high end dining? For mid to upper level restaurants I believe it’s not much more than one with wine and liquor sales bringing the profit.
absolutely food is the better deal overall IMO. $200 in a restaurant gets you several courses, prepared for you specifically, in a thoughtful location with ambiance. $200 in wine gets you… a 1er cru that the producer has no idea you own that might have been damaged during shipping because it was hot or cold or dropped, not including the vessel you drink it out of or anything to go with it (you’ve gotta make or track that down yourself still)
Another question is whether the people complaining about $1000 at Masa are the same ones buying $15K RC.
I never felt that I could afford RC. When Masa first opened I considered a meal as a splurge and eventually decided it wasn’t worth it to me esp. compared with other high end restaurants. At current pricing it isn’t even on my radar.
The more I think about it, this may be the pivotal issue. Fine wine is inherently scarce–even monopolistic–in ways you don’t see with great restaurants or even other popular beverages. If one wants to drink Grand Cru Burgundy, there’s only so much out there and no more can be created. That’s even more extreme if one wants to drink Romanee Conti, Petrus, etc. It’s not like DRC can start growing grapes in Portugal and selling the wine for La Tache pricing. A central tenet of the appellation system is a lack of substitutability that creates all these mini-monopolies. Hell, it’s “monopoles” that often command the highest prices. High-end wine just isn’t very scalable.
By contrast, the market for high-end restaurants is more adaptable and therefore more price-competitive. For instance, if all the sudden there is a craze for *** restaurants in NY, you’ll see more sous chefs leaving to form their own restaurants, more chefs moving from other locales, etc. More foie gras can be produced; more ramps can be grown. You’ll see real and vicious competition that will depress prices. In fact the dynamic with restaurants is almost the opposite of what you see with wine. Often it’s the newest, shiniest restaurants that command the most interest and premium. Whereas with wine, it’s tradition, terroir, and scarcity that drive the high end. If there’s a craze for Leroy or DRC, that demand can’t be met–at least not quickly and probably not at all–by new wineries popping up and meeting that demand. All that happens is a massive price escalation in Leroy and DRC.
This also, it seems, is a key reason why wine and age-designated spirits (Scotch/Bourbon) become orders of magnitude pricier than other beverages. When craft beer becomes popular, you see a zillion craft breweries trying to do the same thing. Ditto with Vodka etc. Impossible with 23yo Pappy. It’s all about scalability.
What does this mean for us? It means that restaurants are subject to competitive forces that benefit customers. It also means that, barring a severe dropoff in demand, we’re unlikely to see a new era of cheap wine.
A tangential point: it seems to me the answer of why people are pissed about Masa etc is largely due to visibility. The NYT writes about–and recommends!–Masa and Per Se etc. Eric Asimov doesn’t really write about GC Burgs. If he did–e.g., if he wrote an article about Pinot Noir and recommended wines only from Vosne Romanee–I’m sure there’d be screaming.
This isn’t on the level of what some of you are drinking or eating, but at a weird fringe athletic event last week called the Barkley Marathons, I opened a 1986 Dunn Howell Mountain and grilled up wagyu burgers to share with the guy who tweets the Barkley, Keith Dunn. The wine was definitely much more expensive than the burgers, but I couldn’t have been happier.
I’m in the same boat. The more collectible wine I’ve acquired, the more I hate paying restaurant mark up. When I go out for a nice meal, the food takes center stage. I have better wine at home. If I’m going to open a thousand dollar bottle, I want to completely control the decant time, temp, and glassware. I want to come back to it 4 hours later and try it again.