The Comprehensive Hypothetical Napa Classified Growth Lists (and what we might consider to be the current cult wines)

I think JJK’s list is pretty close to what I think makes sense in terms of classified producers. I haven’t tasted them all and would probably move some up and down a bit but the overall approach seems right to me.

But. Schrader owned zero vines before it was bought by Constellation in 2017. Now that same company also owns a lot of To Kalon. Should a pure negociant be a ‘First Growth’? Schrader now is more like Cheval Blanc, owned by a mega corporation. While some of these others have been sold to big companies, haven’t they all owned some or all of their own vineyards?

Because Backus is much better than anything Phelps is making or because Backus could be so much better if in someone else’s hands? [scratch.gif]

Ridge MonteBello is the Haut Brion of Napa first growths.

First of all, we have to establish rules. Rules? In a knife fight?

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The original 1855 Bordeaux classification was based upon average selling price over the preceding 40 years. So there is a test of time standard. Since "our"vineyards suffered from the destruction caused by prohibition, followed by The Depression, followed by WWII, 40 years might be a bit much, so let’s say 30 years shows staying power. Cultishness, as a characteristic, is too vague. There are plenty of threads on what is and is not a cult, so let’s just leave that out and go with price as the market characteristic best suited to measure quality without regard to palate disputes. The problem, of course, is that this leaves out winemakers like some of my favorites Thomas Rivers Brown and Mike Smith, because they are too new and established themselves at new sites, rather than old line vineyards. Les mauvais garcon of Napa. It also leaves out some of my favorite new kids on the block - MacDonald and Scarecrow. Oh well, they will make it in my son’s reclassification in 2040.

One other rule - If you have never had it, you can’t list it. This means Screaming Eagle is not on my list. It is only 27 years,but even if you average in three years at $0.00 price, it would still be a first growth, but not having had it, it’s out.

That leaves me with:

First Growths

Shafer HSS
Diamond Creek (a couple of different cuvees are great so I will just put the winery name.)
Ridge MB
Heitz Martha’s
Mondavi Reserve (NOTE: the best grapes are now in MacDonald!)
Opus One pileon
Dominus
Colgin Herb Lamb - * see below
Araujo Eisele - See Colgin and Screagle and Abreu Madronna Ranch

Second Growths

Dunn Howell Mountain
Pahlmeyer Prop Red
Caymus SS pileon pileon
Beringer PR
Heitz Trailside
Dalla Valla Maya
Montelena Estate (extra credit for kicking French ass in 1976)
Spottswood Estate
Togni (not sure which one, I’ve only had it once or twice).

Honorable Mention

Silver Oak Alexander Valley - Not in Napa and no where near what it once was, but excellent before it became a steakhouse bulk wine
Jordan- See Silver Oak
Abreu Madronna ranch - data unclear on whether it has actually been around for 30 years. If so, it goes in First Growth or Super Second
Beaulieu GdL PR - spotty. I have had some great ones and some really bad ones. I used to hate these but I think that was because they were so tight young, like Dunn HM. Old ones that were well kept seem outstanding.
Phelps Backus.

  • OOPS -I made the list above without looking at other posts. I then took a quick look and realized that I did not consider Colgin. Looks like Screagle. Started just after the 30 year window so it did not come up in my CT search for 1989 Cabs. I think it goes in as a First Growth.

FIFY! [cheers.gif]

I am a Burgundy lover, so I agree that a classification of vineyards makes more sense to me than a classification of wineries. But, it seems to be that if one tries to rank a number of the greatest vineyards in Napa or California history, you get to a lot of vineyards that are owned by one producer (more like a Bordeaux model than a Burgundy model) and in a number of cases where the wines coming through the vineyards today are not what they once were.

Being older, I think of some of the great vineyards as being:

Montebello
To-Kalon
BV Home Vineyard (isn’t this the name of the vineyard for their Private Reserve)
Napanook
Eisele Vineyard
Martha’s Vineyard
the vineyard for Chateau Montelena Estate
the vineyard for Mayacamas

Only To-Kalon (which as you stated is too large) fits the Burgundy model of multiple owners. Don’t the others fit more the Bordeaux model where vineyard and producer are more the same (I realize the Eisele and Napanook are a bit of a hybrid as there have been more than one winery using the grapes but it is generally one winery at a time).

That was wonderful, great post!

You guys are tying yourselves into knots trying to get your parameters workable.

But once you go with some arbitrary criteria, particularly age, you are going to lose so many wineries, so that the whole thing becomes meaningless. I would suggest that you should recognize that Napa is an older region but most of its growth is recent, and rather than worry about what the Bordeaux merchants did 163 years ago, take Napa for what it is, and choose accordingly.

I guess I am surprised I am not seeing Spottswoode consistently in that first growth category. They have it all: longevity, great scores and classic profile.

My First Growth would be as follows:

Shafer Hillside
Ridge M
Spottswoode
Colgin
Harlan
Abreu
Dominus

1 Like

I agree with including Monte Bello anyways. just like Haut Brion in 1855. Its too good not to.

you also mentioned GC/PC vs terrior and I think that terrior is almost an impossible way to do it in Napa, where there is just so much in-winery manipulation just as standard practice. in fact, I sometimes think it would be hard to set up the grand cruller system in Burgundy at this point even now for the same reason. (even when discounting the politics of it at this point)

If winemaker is key, can they make great juice from cabernet grown in the Painted Desert, AZ?

Absurd
Roy said that winemaker is key, but not the whole equation.
Could Belichick have won this year’s Super Bowl with the roster of the Raiders?

Obviously! Just making a point.

All are key. You need good terroir, good winemaking and (at least) reasonable weather.

the latter.

more the opposite :slight_smile:. i am a big cheerleader for HA.

I don’t have adequate experience with it or its reputation other than it’s supposed to be great and it’s a board darling like no other. But given my lack of experience with it, I wasn’t comfortable putting it up there. One could say the same for Screagle, but there we have nearly 30 years of notes, nearly all supremely positive, with a near-consensus that it’s phenomenal wine year in and year out, price aside.

Yeah, me too. I finally dropped off the list because there are just too many alternatives out there, and the price point was getting higher than I cared to pay. By comparison, Dominos (a different animal as we have both agreed and yet equally delicious to me in a different way) is a bargain. Lots of choice out there these days.

Your spidey-senses were clearly in full operational mode, Will [grin.gif]

A terrific thread with the continued discussion. Including the opinions/passionate defences—almost a perfect “sample thread” to show lurkers/would-be-members? [berserker.gif]

I recall a time not so long ago when Pride, virtually all the wines - not just the reserves - used to get much praise. I didn’t scan every post carefully, but I did not see Pride mentioned. My favorite experiences pre-Tokalon hype (deserved) was with Pride Reserve Cab and Claret and Phelps Insignia. Many other good wines (Montelena, etc.) but these two were transcendent

Not much mention of Maybach in this thread. They certainly fall under “cult” status, therefore would be a Classified Growth by this thread’s hypothetical definition, given that their secondary market price is twice or more of release price.

A few years ago I was contemplating a similar question and spent some time going through cellar tracker to compare the average scores of top Napa wines to those of some top bordeaux estates. I figured that a top wine needs to perform well year over year so I took an average of the cellar tracker average scores for 2003-2013 for a bunch of wines. Not every wine had scores for every year and you can argue about the validity of cellar tracker scores to begin with, but I thought it would be an interesting comparison. I also included the appelation as I wanted to see if there were certain areas that had more top scoring wines. It seemed pretty clear that great wines are made from all over Napa.

I’ve attempted to paste below the list ranked in order of average score and highlighting some of the bordeaux first and second growths for comparison (hopefully the list shows up readable). The listing of wines certainly isn’t comprehensive and I’m sure there were many top wines I left out, but I thought it could be interesting for this group to see in the context of this discussion.

  • Schrader Old Sparky Napa Oakville West 97.0
    Schrader CCS Napa Oakville West 96.8
    Abreu Thorevilos Napa 96.7
    Abreu Cappella Napa Howell Mountain 96.3
    Abreu Cappella Napa St. Helena 96.0
    Abreu Madrona Ranch Napa St. Helena 96.0
    Schrader T6 Napa Oakville West 96.0
    Harlan Harlan Napa Oakville West 95.9
    Colgin Tychson Hill Napa St. Helena 95.8
    Scarecrow Scarecrow Napa Rutherford 95.6
    Chateau Latour Chateau Latour Bordeaux Pauillac 95.4
    Chateau Lafitte Chateau Lafitte Bordeaux Pauillac 95.4
    Colgin IX Estate Napa Pritchard Hill 95.3
    Dana Estate Hershey Vineyard Napa Howell Mountain 95.3
    Bond Vecina Napa Oakville West 95.3
    Carter The O.G. Napa Oakville West 95.3
    Chateau Haut-Brion Chateau Haut-Brion Bordeaux Pessac-Leognan 95.2
    Colgin Cariad Napa 95.2
    Carter Three Kings Napa Oakville West 95.1
    Schrader RBS Napa Oakville West 95.1
    Dana Estate Lotus Vineyard Napa St. Helena 95.0
    Shafer Hillside Select Napa Stags Leap 94.9
    Carter The Grand Daddy Napa Oakville West 94.8
    Paul Hobbs Beckstoffer To Kalon Napa Oakville West 94.7
    Tor Tierra Roja Napa Oakville East 94.7
    Chateau Margaux Chateau Margaux Bordeaux Pauillac 94.6
    Dalla Valle Maya Napa Oakville East 94.5
    Realm Beckstoffer Dr. Crane Napa St. Helena 94.5
    Dana Estate Helms Vineyard Napa Rutherford 94.4
    Realm Beckstoffer To Kalon Napa Oakville West 94.3
    Paul Hobbs Beckstoffer Dr. Crane Napa St. Helena 94.3
    Bond St. Eden Napa Oakville East 94.3
    Chateau Mouton Rothschild Chateau Mouton Rothschild Bordeaux Pauillac 94.2
    Bevan EE Napa Oakville East 94.1
    Bond Quella Napa 94.0
    Scarecrow M. Etain Napa Rutherford 93.9
    Tor Beckstoffer To Kalon Napa Oakville West 93.9
    Bond Melbury Napa 93.9
    Dalla Valle Cabernet Napa Oakville East 93.8
    Loeville Las Cases Loeville Las Cases Bordeaux St. Julien 93.8
    Dana Estate Hershey Vineyard Napa Pritchard Hill 93.7
    Bond Quella Napa Spring Mountain 93.6
    Realm The Bard Napa Napa 93.5
    Abreu Rothwell Hyde Napa 93.5
    O’shaughnessy Mount Veeder Napa Mount Veeder 93.2
    Cos D’Estournel Cos D’Estournel Bordeaux St. Estephe 93.1
    Harlan The Maiden Napa Oakville West 93.1
    Realm The Falstaff Napa Napa 93.0
    Realm Beckstoffer Dr. Crane Napa 93.0
    O’shaughnessy Howell Mountain Napa Howell Mountain 92.9
    Paul Hobbs Stagecoach Napa Atlas Peak 92.9
    Bond Matriarch Napa 92.6
    Tor Cimarossa Napa Howell Mountain 92.5
    Realm The Tempest Napa Napa 92.4
    Loeville Poyferre Loeville Poyferre Bordeaux St. Julien 92.1
    Loeville Barton Loeville Barton Bordeaux St. Julien 91.9
    Dominus Dominus Napa Yountville 93.6