Yes, that was the OP’s opinion. But, there are other views. A quick google search confirms that. Super second is not a defined, per se, category, and hence was not ever linked to cost. It is a modern judgement based on perceived quality. But I think you are correct, this string was originally more about Palmer than “ super-second”.
I have a soft spot for Palmer for numerous reasons (especially the fact that it is Sally’s Wine) and I think often merits its price.
There is no official roster of ‘Super Seconds’ and the unofficial roster seems to be ever-changing: Lynch Bages has been on the cusp forever but today Pontet-Canet seems to be there as well. Many official seconds sell for the price of 5ths below the level of Lynch Bages and Pontet-Canet. Until the takeover by the Dillons, La Mission Haut Brion seemed as likely a candidate for 1st as Mouton was in the day.
I haven’t stopped buying Bordeaux to lay down, although I buy much less of it and am unlikely to enjoy 2015s and 2016s at their prime, assuming they are still being built as 30 - 50 year wines. I will probably dip into my unopened case of 1999 Palmer this coming winter, when it hits 20 years. That is young, even though it probably has more Merlot in the final blends than almost any other Classified Medoc.
Ignoring my soft spot as much as I can, to reply to Mark’s original post, I would put Palmer, over all the vintages I’ve had for these wines since the 60s, about equal with Leoville Las Cases, and a little ahead of Pichon Lalande and Ducru Boogaloo. YMMV, which is why we have a wine board with long, discursive threads.
Dan Kravitz
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I did not know that either. Thanks for the education
Cool thread. This is one of the major Chateaux that I have only very little experience with. Pricey stuff.
The majority owners of Chateau Palmer are the Sichel family, of German Jewish origin (with British and other branches). It was originally part of Chateau d’Issan and was purchased in 1814 by the retired English general Palmer. It was then purchased in 1853 by the Pereire Brothers, French Jewish bankers of Portuguese origin, rivals of the Rothschilds. The Sichels purchased it bit by bit, the final purchase coming in 1938, in partnership with the Mahler-Besse family (I believe a 3rd family owns ~10%). So no surprise that Jews were sheltered. Peter M. F. Sichel was interned in France as a young man, escaped and worked for the OSS (forerunner of the CIA) during WW II. He then returned to the family business and (IMO the only blot on his record) created Blue Nun. Peter Allen Sichel, from the English branch, was in charge of Chateau Palmer when I was selling Bordeaux as my primary business and I was welcomed at the Chateau several times. Peter Allen Sichel owned Chateau d’Angludet outright, a far more modest property, and that was where he lived. I always found everything about Palmer and the people involved to be wonderful; as mentioned I have a soft spot for it and continue to buy even at today’s prices.
Dan Kravitz
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Blue nun probably got a lot of people into wine.
2004 alter ego stole my heart…too bad it got more modern
We seem to have similar tastes, but not with this. A lot of disappointments, especially 1982 and 1986. Very good wines in 1985 and 1989, and a brilliant 1996. But overall for me, a wine with a great reputation that too seldom delivers.
Thanks for sharing the history, fascinating.
When did you last have the 82. After being closed for decades, it has started getting really good during the last year or two.
In the Summer when we did a Medoc 1982 tasting. The Las Cases was in a flight of the three Leovilles. None of them were great, and the Las Cases was still massive and dull and I liked it least of the three.
Ok, then, I guess we disagree on LLC.
The LLC was my least favorite of the 82 Super Seconds. It had a porty quality in its early years. Any of that left, Mark?
We had a trio of LLC on my birthday this past November. The 79 was not especially memorable, though a solid wine. The 85 was probably my favorite LLC I’ve ever had, while the 1996 was both young and boring. A 1990 I had last year was equally monolithic and boring despite 3 hours in a decanter.
LLC is a bigger wine than Ducru but I think Ducru is a far more interesting wine capable of greater expression.
A good friend of mine received a 1961 Palmer as a gift around 15 years ago, and it was purchased at that time . Any guesses what it cost then ? Or is there some (free) website out there for this ? We are both curious , thanks .
Always my favorite Bordeaux. One remaining - a 2000.
Has Cos D’Estournel been mentioned as a Super Second?
Probably not that different from what it is now; around $1500 with a possible 50% increase depending on provenance. I used a bottle in a 2000 tasting from my own collection for a millennium event and charged $1500.
I have never thought of it as a legitimate super second, although many do. To me, it has a lot less character than say a Palmer, Ducru or Montrose, and that for me is what makes a contender for membership of the Super Second Club.
When I first heard the word super second in the 1980s, I thought of them being LLC, Palmer, Ducru and Pichon Lalande. At that time I would have thought that Cos was close and even closer than Montrose. A lot of that was because of how good the 1982 Cos was. Over the first 20 years or so after release, the 1982 Cos was the favorite or one of the top favorites at virtually every 1982 tasting I attend. Over the years since then, I think Montrose has made much better wines than Cos in most vintages. And, the 1982 Cos, while still excellent, has been surpassed by a bunch of other 1982s. Today, my super seconds would include Montrose, but not Cos.
My question on super seconds is what do you do with Mission Haut Brion. Not a Medoc, but then neither is Haut Brion. Generally priced higher than 2nd growths, but lower than 1st growths. Is Mission Haut Brion is super second or is it better than that.