+1 on Mark not being a bad guy—well, except when he beats my ass in fantasy football. We had a lot of fun together at a dinner a few years back and I enjoyed his company very much.
Opinionated? Maybe. Isn’t that a fair description of a pretty fair bunch of us? If we weren’t, we wouldn’t be as passionate about this hobby/addiction as we are.
Nevertheless, I do take Neal’s point. He’s also not a bad guy to be around Nor Jay—once you get used to him, of course
I suppose the most recent nominee I can think of offhand was a 2007 Clos des Papes about a year and a half ago…guess I’ve been lucky!
Again, I wasn’t attacking Mark, and I hope it did not seem as if my post was personal to him. I know I have posted some inflammatory things in the past and probably will at some point in the future. But to my mind there is a difference between being provocative and being insulting.
I had an 05 Saxum 44 yesterday–it was (to quote someone ), opulent.
But I am not hating. My palate leans toward AFWE wines but I also buy a good bit of Napa Cab (and a bit of Saxum).
I don’t care for really rip PN though. I had an Auteur last week and I really really hated it.
Just my palate preference.
People on this board don’t mind being called “provocative, narrow-focused, arrogant.” What does raise a ruckus is the word “pretentious.” Which is actually the key word - this is the quality that gives wine-lovers a bad name.
Post this in the ironic section but why do you care if someone says ‘ugh, this wine is crap’?
This board is much different then the Parker board as there are a variety of opinions, if you don’t like what the op is saying then move on.
People are very sensitive on this board to things that really don’t matter, why can’t mark write what he wants? Isn’t the freedom of speech also give you the right not to read?
I often find that this board seems to flame the fires of things that could easily go by the wayside.
I also don’t find it elitist or snobbish not to like a wine or style and to comment about the dislikes.
It seems the same people that claim snobishness are the same folks who put people down that don’t like ‘their’ style of wine, isn’t that snobbish in itself?
If you don’t like it move on, who cares, there is plenty to read beside this thread…
I always thought this was one of the funniest Parker reviews ever. I get this vision of him sitting down at the table in his bathrobe smacking his lips in preparation for some yummy syrupy opulence, but…what’s this…WHERE’S MY SYRUP! WHERE IS MY MASSIVE WINE WITH THE CONSISTENCY OF MOTOR OIL AND A SIXTY SECOND FINISH?! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!
For the record I think what you’re describing above about people commneting that a wine is “syrah-like” or that the varietal traits are blurred, does not necessarily mean that with a group of tasters in even a blind, would see NONE of them thinking any of the wines were pinot. That seems an incredibly extreme result to me. So I asked Mark because I was curious whether he was making a slight exaggeration or if that was actually what happened. I didn’t mean to jump on him, and he answered my question.
Myabe I just have more experience drinking these big pinots because, even understanding the difficulty of blind tasting, I can’t imagine that I wouldn’t think ANY of that group of wines were pinot. I bet I might be able to peg one,two as K-B pinot because to me the K-B’s have a somewhat distinctive style within the group of “big” pinots.
Neal expressed my dislike for these kinds of posts well. Good job Neal. I think he describes an aspect of human nature in any group that is undeniable. Jason, this isn’t a free speech issue. Of course Mark or anyone can say whatever they’d like. The question is whether the style of that wine commentary rubs people the wrong way, and makes this group look like a bunch of pretentious wine dorks. As Neal noted in relation to himself, people don’t join, or just don’t partake in wine talk. You can say it shouldn’t be that way all you want. Even if you a rationally correct, you aren’t adressing the reality of what members and watchers think of this sort of hyperbolic trashing. There are better (IMO) ways to say that K-B pinot really didn’t taste good.
Sure I get your point but how many posts are really offensive or demonstrative?
Hardly any, this is one of the few forums where civility rains supreme almost to a fault, is what I’m getting at.
What Jason said; we’re all adults here, some people need to grow a thicker skin, IMO.
Mark is in the business; unless I’m mistaken, that means he pretty much has to taste a lot of different wines. So he writes a slightly snarky (but also somewhat amusing) note on some wines popular with others here; BFD. Does all discussion have to be ultra-sensitive to the feelings of others? I’ve never had any wines from KB but I’d thinks fans would be happy for any comments that might help keep the prices down.
I don’t find it to be thin skin syndrome, which is rampant in our society. I think its rooted in the difference between these two statements directed at the owner of a cluster home. “A cluster home is not for me, I need a big yard for the kids” vs. “Cluster homes suck”. Who does that in real society?
It is not thin skinned to find that tasteless or boorish, you have criticized (without adding any value) someone’s investment, likely for the selfish reason of making you feel better about yourself.
But rob to finish my point, if you’re happy with your ‘cluster home’ then why do you care what I think.
It is about being thin skinned and it is about those people that like a certain style of wine being ‘upset’ that someone talks smack about them or may think they are bad.
Too much gets read into the word ‘suck’ that people get so upset when they read that and go sideways.
Now if he said ‘people in cluster homes are…’ Fill in the blanks with negative terms about those peoples personal traits then that is different, but just saying 'cluster homes suck and giving a rationale for that answer doesn’t hurt anyone.
He’s not making fun of anyone, just the wines, and if you take that as a personal slant then you are thin skinned. People have an issue separating the two ideologies all the time and it’s just becoming ridiculous.
Someone has every right to make fun of something that you may like, they don’t have the right to make fun of YOU, there is a difference.
Not so sure that was the intent. More importantly, freedom of speech gives you the right to speak back, particularly to disagree. Which is exactly what’s happening here.
Going back to the OP, Mark puts down the wines, not the people who like them. His use of provocative language is intentional, to generate interest and replies. Successfully, it appears, though some have chosen to make this more about the drinkers than the wines. Not surprising, given the provocative language in the OP, and hey, this is the internet, where freedom of speech reigns (at least where allowed by the moderator).
Too sensitive? Maybe. But here too more likely just a difference in preference for debate styles. Kind of like the difference in preference for “AFWE” vs. “Purple Drank” style wines.
The difference is that some people, and seemingly more AFWE people (or what could probably better be termed “traditionalists”), think that there is such a thing as inherently bad wines, worthy of derision. Others feel that all wine evaluation is purely preferential. The latter group views their preferences as an absolute right, and that any who would impinge upon that right does so only out of a cruel desire to better their own position. To the former these- for lack of a better term - parkerized wines, the exalted place they have held in the wine world, and the influence they have had on changing styles in previously traditional regions are a detriment and that heaping scorn on these wines is justified. I wasn’t on the Parker board in the height of his moment, but I imagine that traditional wines may have met with such scorn, that the traditionalist played the part of the overly-sensitive soul who needed to defend his choice. Now it is the opposite, at least around here. Some people greet these comments with head-shaking and hand-wringing over the negative tone. I agree with Jason that its just wine and that people should grow a thicker skin. If you like KB or its ilk defend your position like Mark above, don’t lament that someone feels otherwise and has the audacity to bring it up on a wine board.
White Zinfandel anyone? Thunderbird? Manischewitz? Of course there are “bad” wines. Even wines with a huge following don’t necessarily have to be good. All of these are standardized, industrial wines made to a formula, where all the individuality and all the things which I find make a wine interesting have been beaten out of them.
Can I by extension say that the KBs I tasted that night have many of the characteristics of those wines? They did. Personally I found no redeeming qualities in them. I had no interest in tasting beyond what I needed for assessing them, I had no wish to finish the glass let alone reach for a second. That for me was the most damning indictment of these wines. Does that make them bad wines? For me yes. I define wines that are good as something I would want to drink. If I would prefer to drink water to the wine, it is not good. If the winemaker could have made a better wine, and chose not to, that is a problem. And if whole appellations choose to go with this style of wine, it becomes personal.
The fact that many people like, in fact really like, the wines, does not make them any better. Of course my view is subjective. If you like White Zinfandel feel free to drink it. But don’t tell me that because a lot of people like it, I have to allow that it is a good wine. I choose not to, and my apologies to all those who like KB- I do not think it is a good wine.
IMO the big difference is that he has criticized the wines (which is part and parcel of a wine discussion board). You have criticized the person which is not. You have read into his criticism of the wines an implicit criticism of anyone who likes them but I don’t. I never take it personally when people insult wines I like. I much prefer to know their honest opinions of them if for no other reason than I’ll know what sort of wines to open for them and which to avoid.
Nor Jay—once you get used to him, of course 
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), opulent.
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