The 200th of my dinners with some emotional wines

WINE TALK
41

As always, a treat to read about the truly old wines, and how they perform today. Thank You M. Audouze.

I’m also in the “do never recork” camp.
I don’t like the thought of anybody -breaking the original seal, -doing some, usually not well documented, procedures, -and then resealing the bottle.

If a producer finds out, that the corks used in a specific vintage were of poor quality, and will fail in a few years, then I can see the purpose of saving these, by recorking with proper quality. But that happens very rarely.
Otherwise, I believe the original cork is an integrated part of the wine, and will age along with the fluid content.

-And I will not be able to judge when a cork is about to fail. But I can tell when it’s too late ! And then it’s too late. (But not for a reconditioning and recorking…-by Rudy et al.)

Kind regards, Soren.

42

Herwig,
I am completely in phase with Michael Broadbent on this subject.

43

Sorry, this is not correct, not to say nonsense.
If every producer would (successfully) test his corks against TCA there may not be any cork issues at all.
50, 100+ years ago the cork trees were harvested in much longer intervals, therefore the quality was definitely better (TCA-free).

The worst quality of corks was delivered IMHO in the 80ies and 90ies … since then quality has increased slightly but steadily, most probably due to the usage of alternative closure (so less corks are needed). There are still TCA corks in wine bottles (just last week in a 2013 Bordeaux).

44

Nobody who knows Francois in person could make such a statement. He´s one of the most generous wine-lovers I ever got to know.
I guess you would like to join such a dinner for free, taste rare old wines like these - and pay nothing at all!
(not to speak of the efforts for dinner, restaurant service, cork fees etc.)
[scratch.gif]

45

Gerhard,
I think you and some others are misunderstanding. So let me clarify. I have no issues with Francois. I have never met him and I believe the views of others that he is a wonderful and generous person. If I saw him today at a restaurant and I was drinking something nice I’d send him a glass over to try, as I would any of you or any other person I know to be a wine lover. I would love to discuss corks with him. That has nothing to do with this post, and the others like it before.

Francois is not new to wine boards, he’s been on them longer than I have. There are some pretty clear cut ground rules that one does not do. That is failing to disclose ones financial interest in what is being posted about. For years I have read his posts about these meals. Never once, that I saw, did he ever disclose these meals were a commercial venture. A very successful one at that, given how long he’s done them and how often he does them. Reading them I was led to believe they were a dinner among friends with Francois generous nature. Prior to this post I learned that was not the case, that in fact he was selling these wines and the meal. Was I upset, you bet. Why? I was purposely misled.

As I mentioned, if this was someone other than Francois and people found out they were doing something similar they would be, and have been, flamed on this board for doing so. While I believe these posts don’t belong on any wine board, written by the person getting the financial gain. I am glad that people are made aware that these posts from him are not written purely as a wine lover, but as a business person with something to gain by it.

46

Andy,
When you do not know things, do not pretend that you know them.
On corks, I am sorry to say that you do not know much about old corks.
When you say : “I was purposely misled”, you transform your ignorance into a certainty.
I do not feel obliged to answer to you as the premises are completely wrong.
I do not feel the necessity of correcting your ignorance.

47

how you can go to one of these? Like how do u book/pay and how much these are?

Seems like it’s be a cool experience if time lines up and you happen to be in France? Obviously lining up time is the hard part if u don’t live there :slight_smile:

48

Andy, it isn’t worth my time to get into an extended argument with you on this and it would do no good, because for reasons that honestly escape me, you have taken this as some sort of personal affront. But the fact is that Francois is not selling anything to me, or offering to sell me anything, and if he were – if I was in a position to buy in to one of these dinners I would be ecstatic to do so. I did not know it was a commercial venture (and still do not but will take your word for it), but if he were trying to monetize these events on WB, he surely would have included a link to the “business” site you claim he has. Finally, it is apparent that Francois checked with Todd before posting; I am not sure what else you would demand of him.

Your response was dramatically, flamboyantly outsized to the alleged problem, and from what I can see, your personal attack entirely unwarranted. If your conduct has chased Francois away from doing what Todd has agreed he is entitled to do, I think the board will have been impoverished as a result.

49

I appreciate Francois’ notes, all the more so because there are so few people (outside of wine fora and CT) writing about mature or even semi-mature wines, let alone the truly ancient. I’m holding out faint hope there will be another ‘vintage wines’ book by Broadbent, but I got the feeling that the Rodenstock revelations and subsequent court case may have dulled his enthusiasm. He isn’t young. Meanwhile mainstream wine writers focus almost solely on new release wines, and I fear their palates / palate perspective is affected by this.

The recorking discussion has raised another couple of questions in my mind: When was ‘TCA’ first discovered (e.g. chemically identified as the source of cork taint) and when was the first mention of a wine being ‘corked’?

FWIW I think Francois did absolutely perfectly by:

  • clearing this thread with Todd
  • Stating this (and that the dinners are paid for by guests)

For me this is stated clearly (and has been discussed/clarified on previous threads), but it is also useful for the forum, as anyone thinking this is a green light to tout their commercial venture, is steered to the respectful protocol of getting approval from the board owner.

There is reason within Andy’s argument, so please don’t consider turning the pitchforks on him (as can happen on this forum on occasions). I personally strongly disagree with him, but I understand the point he is making.

regards
Ian

50

I’m surprised Francois’ “business” - which really is a labor of love, not a true commercial venture - was not known to many of you. He speaks about his dinners frequently. It’s silly to declare being mislead. But that’s beside the point as he asked Todd for permission to post his report. It’s Todd’s house. I enjoyed the read.

51

This is absolutely not true - at least not true that Francois did not reveal that he “sells” (if you wanna call it like that) his wine dinners … he has often stated exactly that …
You simply must have missed it …

52

It’s clear in the first paragraph of Francois’ post that people are paying for the dinners and wines, and Francois has discussed this openly for six years on WB.

53

This issue comes up again and again. I remember a thread on the Parker Board with almost the same content about 10 years ago. Francois ask for money to taste his ancient wines. Ok – why should he do it for free?

I have other problems and this has nothing to do with the price of his dinners that is not overblown IMO. It is the age of most of the wines he serves. I certainly had not nearly as many very old wines as Francois but I think I had enough of them to post here. And therefore I must say that these wines are not for everybody. IMO many old bottles get more love than they deserve. For example – most Champagne older than 40 years have barely bubbles if any. They may not be oxidized, but tired. The same can be said to red wines older than 50 years. Sure – the wines may be not oxidized, but are fragile in most of the cases. It is certainly interesting to experience wines at the end of their life but nobody should expect some kind of magic. Why do I tell this? Because I did serve some non oxidized white and red wines from Germany, Burgundy, Bordeaux and Italy from the 50th, 60th and 70th to wine loving guests at my table and rarely saw enthusiasm. Everybody seems to admire the fact that these old-timers are still alive. But that came more of a surprise and not the real quality of the content in the glass. I think this is the rule and not the exception.

54

Well said Jurgen. I find old wines fascinating, but having just turned 50 I think it’s time to do away with the past and focus on what is to come, rather than what has been. So no more '66 wines, or older, and instead it’s time to explore new wines and new areas.

55

Jurgen
I am a enthusiast of old wines - not in the extreme age (or quality/prestige) of Francois’ wines, but with my more modest means it is very much an interest.

There is indeed much reality in what you say. Many wines are very tired, some are completely shot, whilst others have acquired facets that are difficult to argue against them being faults. So why do people still eulogise about the merits of very old wine? For me the following are factors:

  1. When in good shape, these wines offer flavours and aromas that are very rare to experience, perhaps not unique, but possibly unique for the taster to have experienced in their lifetime. Indeed even tired wines can offer something really unusual, interesting and intriguing. By comparison younger wines offer more reliable & consistent flavour/aroma profiles, but that consistency can be at the cost of interest. It is not difficult to see how a half-dozen 50 year old wines may provoke more discussion and interest than the same labels all at a decade old. Add to that, when old wines are great, they can be so spellbinding that they stay in the memory for a long time.

  2. We all recognise our palates differ, and some people either just don’t enjoy the charms of old wines, or rather I see it as they find the faults/problems outweigh the upside. For some, just a whiff of oxidation or hint of barnyard is enough to put them off. If that is how it is for them, then older wines aren’t going to be a happy hunting ground. Likewise prizing intensity over delicacy isn’t going to make for a great success rate with older wines. Old champagne is a great example because those that love it have no problem with the lack of bubbles and flavours that move closer to sherry. They remain quite a small subset of wine enthusiasts, but they are very enthusiastic about such wines.

  3. There will be people who love the history element to this - drinking wine from when X was alive and so on. I’m not bought into this myself, though like many here, I have enjoyed buying a small number of birth year wines, and was given another for my birthday this year. I look forward to opening it with the people who gave it to me, together with other wines. It gives us an excuse to invite those friends round, so I suppose I see some of the argument.

regards
Ian

56

On the forum of Robert Parker, the manager of the forum Mark Squires was an opponent to old wines and I proposed him to open wines for him if he would come to Paris.
We had lunch together with a few other members of the forum.

I could have chosen wines of 1945 or 1947 to show the interest of old wines, and instead of that I brought two wines, one of 1913 and one of 1915. Of course I took a risk, but I wanted to make it so.
I took a Chambertin Jules Reignier 1913 and a Nuits Cailles 1915 like the one in the 200th dinner.

Mark reported on the forum that the wines that I had opened were great.
Of course this experience did not change his opposition towards old wines, but he recognised that the wines that I had offered to drink were great.

I would be happy to make the same experience, for free of course, with people of this forum coming to Paris, and not convinced by the ability of very old wines to be great wines.

I have shared with Aubert de Villaine a Gaudichots DRC 1929 which I had bought with a friend, and this wine was spectacularly great.

I think that I am able to prove it in any circumstances, with wines which I will choose in my cellar.

Where is my interest ? Certainly not for commercial reasons. As I love old wines, I would like that people enjoy them as they should be enjoyed. And if I can convince amateurs of the greatness of very old wines, I am happy.

I have written in my book that I am convinced that more than 50% of the old wines put to the sink were great wines.

I show you the votes of the 200th dinner

If the participants had only a polite attiitude towards the wines, they would never have voted as they did. Why would they declare brilliant a 1929 Richebourg and a 1898 Lafite if they were not ?

57

I am always happy to read notes on relics that I will likely never taste from someone who is immensely passionate about wine, regardless of the business aspect of these dinners.

I have had a handful of 80-115 year old wines and they were some of the most memorable and intriguing wine experiences I have had to date.

58

It’s absurd to think that Francois is hustling business by posting here. Yes, it’s an international board but I would be surprised if the people attending his dinners are participants here. Anyone who posts here should be taken in their totality. I remember Francois being absent for a very long time while he was moving his wine. I also seem to remember his relating coming upon a great cellar that was available to him and reflecting as to whether or not he should go forward with the acquisition. From a purely practicle perspective, by doing what he is doing he is able to open many more bottles than would be possible otherwise. He’s making the wines available to people he would likely not meet if it were not for the dinners, who while strangers in the beginning could well become friends. Great if he is recouping a little of his sizable investment in the process.

59

Thread got sad real quick. These threads are easily my favorite to read on WB.

Congrats on your 200th Francois and please continue to bless our community with this information.

60

I agree 100%. It is clear that Francois is a wine enthusiast and I would argue to treat his posts as such. Maybe one day I’ll have the opportunity to participate in one of his dinners.