Terroir in Whites vs Reds????

[Howard_Cooper]

@Alan Rath

@Howard Cooper

I am always amazed by how the terroir differences that seem so real when tasting two wines side by side go away when I am tasting the two wines blind. So, I am very humble when I am discussing terroir and, based on the tastings I have been to, most of us should be also.

Absolutely agree. Didn’t mean to imply that I could tell nearly as much blind as when tasting side by side. But in side-by-side tasting, I often seem to be able to pick up more of what I interpret as “terroir” in whites than in reds, at least for the types of wines I tend to drink, so I was responding to Tom’s OP in that sense.

Alan, I was not meaning to criticize you at all. As I said, I agree with your point on German wines. I was just limiting the scope of my response.

But, when it comes to Burgundy, the one producer, red or white, where I have been able to taste the most differences in terroir, has been Jacky Truchot, again mostly in side-by-side settings although once or twice blind.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Who is Jacky Truchot?

[TomHill]

@Howard Cooper

Tom, I know that you are a fan of Ridge Zins. Have you ever tried tasting them blind against each other? Have you been able to pick out the wines. I would think if any California Zins show differences in terroir, it would be these.

Yup…done that tasting any number of times. I’ve done decently when the wines are young, though the LS & Geyserville can often be a bit tricky. But once they get 8-10 yrs
of age on them…all bets are pretty much off. Paso/Dusi is easily the most distinctive to pick out.
Tom

[GregT]

So that’s with a particular producer. The way you’d know it was terroir and not the wine maker would be if you could make the same distinction across different producers.

I don’t discount the idea of terroir but I’m not convinced that’s what people are always experiencing.

[Gary_York]

To me, more so for reds than whites. And not all sites are equal in delivering. But excessive styling/overworking of the wine can obscure the best of sites.

[Howard_Cooper]

@TomHill

@Howard Cooper

Tom, I know that you are a fan of Ridge Zins. Have you ever tried tasting them blind against each other? Have you been able to pick out the wines. I would think if any California Zins show differences in terroir, it would be these.

Yup…done that tasting any number of times. I’ve done decently when the wines are young, though the LS & Geyserville can often be a bit tricky. But once they get 8-10 yrs
of age on them…all bets are pretty much off. Paso/Dusi is easily the most distinctive to pick out.
Tom

Thanks, makes a lot of sense. Would be hard for me to do too much of this. A few years back I decided I really like the LS and Geyserville more than their other zins so I mostly now just buy those.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Gary York

To me, more so for reds than whites. And not all sites are equal in delivering. But excessive styling/overworking of the wine can obscure the best of sites.

Agree. It is much easier to tell terroir differences holding producer consistent.

[david_li]

@Howard Cooper

@Gary York

To me, more so for reds than whites. And not all sites are equal in delivering. But excessive styling/overworking of the wine can obscure the best of sites.

Agree. It is much easier to tell terroir differences holding producer consistent.

It is also easier to tell different producers for the whites from the same vineyard.

[Gary_York]

I do understand producers altering vinification to best express what is given to them. But I find that if the vinification(winthin one producer) is the same it is easier to see/understand the site. Excessive ripeness and use of oak are the enemy of terroir.

[TomHill]

@Gary York

I do understand producers altering vinification to best express what is given to them. But I find that if the vinification(winthin one producer) is the same it is easier to see/understand the site. Excessive ripeness and use of oak are the enemy of terroir.

Well…that’s something I find sort of vexing, Gary. If you ask nearly any winemaker anywhere in the World, they all pretty much claim
that they want to be true to the vnyd and express the terroir the best they can. But then, when you ask them, exactly what the do different
in the vinification to best express that terroir, you get a bunch of vague platitudes and a bunch of hand-waving. Guess that mission statement
to best express a vnyd’s terroir is what you’d call “marketing bull$hit”. Seems to me, anyway.
Tom

[Ian_Brand]

Tom,

I think it bears mentioning that all vineyards have terroir like all musicians are talented (and all berserkers are above average). For me, I begin thinking of vineyards having ‘terroir’ when their sense of place shines through relatively moderate vinification, i.e. there is a readily discernible continuity among vintages and between skilled producers.

Regardless, neither white, nor red, nor specific varieties show sense of place any more than any other, theoretically and in my experience. The right grape in the right place in the right hands. And I don’t think its about distinguishing (blind or otherwise), but finding continuity between sites, producers and vintages.

Best.

[TomHill]

@Ian Brand

Tom,

I think it bears mentioning that all vineyards have terroir like all musicians are talented (and all berserkers are above average). For me, I begin thinking of vineyards having ‘terroir’ when their sense of place shines through relatively moderate vinification, i.e. there is a readily discernible continuity among vintages and between skilled producers.

Regardless, neither white, nor red, nor specific varieties show sense of place any more than any other, theoretically and in my experience. The right grape in the right place in the right hands. And I don’t think its about distinguishing (blind or otherwise), but finding continuity between sites, producers and vintages.

Best.

Uhhhhhhh…Ian…but we’ve been told by many folks that PinotNoir…errrrrr…Riesling…errrrr…Nebbiolo…errrrr…NapaVllyCabernet…displays a vnyd’s terroir more than
any other variety. And you don’t believe that??? Shocked…I am!!!

But I like your take on the whole terroir subject. It’s a subject I’m still trying to get my arms around.

Tom

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@GregT

So that’s with a particular producer. The way you’d know it was terroir and not the wine maker would be if you could make the same distinction across different producers.

I don’t discount the idea of terroir but I’m not convinced that’s what people are always experiencing.

I think I agree. The concept of “terroir” is non-controversial. It exists. Figuring out what it “is”; what it’s “like”, divining whether a wine is “transparent” vis a vis the terroir, etc…are nearly impossible to articulate. There are too many variables, and the vineyard site/climate is just one of them.

Burghound used to talk about “transparency of terroir”…as a plus. It sounds good, IMO, but describes nothing meaningful. I suppose, maybe, you could put some dirt and stones in a jar with water, shake it and then filter it, and then you might have a decent sense of “terroir”…and if you do that with various sites, you might be able to compare the jars’ contents. But, once you start addiing grapes and people to the mix, there are lots of “chicken and egg” questions that are unanswerable.

The topic of this thread is interesting. My gut reaction is there’s less in whites to cloud the transparency, both literally and with respect to added variables. But…the same issues in finding/describing “terroir” apply to both.

[DougS]

@TomHill

red wines display terroir much more than white wines

Tom, I’m very surprised to see you say this, but I suspect, as has been mentioned, that it has more to do with what you’re most familiar with than anything else. I know you’ve been at this wine thing for a while, so I have to assume you’ve had the opportunity to taste Rieslings from different vineyards from the same producer and vintage in Germany or Austria side by side. You have done that, right? How about different bottlings of the same sweetness level and vintage from Huet? Those are just a couple of examples, but I find remarkable differences in many such cases. I’d be hard pressed to think of a red wine example outside of Burgundy where the differences are so clear to me, but maybe that’s my own experience in some areas and lack of experience in others. Do you think these examples are the exception and that reds do this more often? If so, I disagree. For a totally different, New World example, how about different vineyard sites for Chardonnay from Mark Aubert? I find huge differences there too. I agree that oak and ripeness make it a little more difficult to see (in general), which I think makes the latter example even more interesting (since it is still so apparent).

[TomHill]

@Doug Schulman

@TomHill

red wines display terroir much more than white wines

Tom, I’m very surprised to see you say this, but I suspect, as has been mentioned, that it has more to do with what you’re most familiar with than anything else. I know you’ve been at this wine thing for a while, so I have to assume you’ve had the opportunity to taste Rieslings from different vineyards from the same producer and vintage in Germany or Austria side by side. You have done that, right? How about different bottlings of the same sweetness level and vintage from Huet? Those are just a couple of examples, but I find remarkable differences in many such cases. I’d be hard pressed to think of a red wine example outside of Burgundy where the differences are so clear to me, but maybe that’s my own experience in some areas and lack of experience in others. Do you think these examples are the exception and that reds do this more often? If so, I disagree. For a totally different, New World example, how about different vineyard sites for Chardonnay from Mark Aubert? I find huge differences there too. I agree that oak and ripeness make it a little more difficult to see (in general), which I think makes the latter example even more interesting (since it is still so apparent).

Doug,
You probably right on that point. When I originally posed the query, I was thinking mostly in terms of Calif wines. I’d tasted a couple of Zins that I was sure I was picking
up Lodi fruit therein. I then I started thinking (always a dangerous thing for me to do)…“Why aren’t I able to pick up that ‘Lodi terroir’ in any white wines I can recall”. And then
I started thinking “Why do I never find any suggestion of terroir in any of the Calif Chards I taste”. If I would have thought about it a bit and broadened my horizons to include Europe,
then I would have posed my question differently. Next week, I’ll post a mea culpa on the subject and try to clarify my thoughts. I know you’ll be awaiting that w/ baited breath!!!
I can’t address the subject of Aubert Chards as I’ve never drunk any of them. But I’ve done plenty (we’re talking Calif here, again) of tastings of wines from different vnyds from the same
producer (Ridge/Carlisle/Bedrock/Siduri/etc). It’s pretty rare that you can’t find large differences in the various bottlings from each vnyd. But identifying differences and identifying terroir
signatures are two different things, I think.
I must admit that I’ve not been as rigorous in pursuing those kinds of tastings in wines from Germany or Austria. Identifying the terroir of Bernkastle from the Saar or the Ruwer is something
I can never hope to do. Or even different vnyds in Bernkastle. Simply because I haven’t tried that experiment. But I have little doubt that many of the winemakers in the Mosel probably
have a pretty good handle on those terroir differences. But this is a hopeless goal for some doofus taster in the hinterlands of NorthernNewMexico I suspect.
Tom

[lleichtman]

@TomHill

I’m not one much to worship at the altar of terroir. I am, of course, not able to distinguish a Richebourg from a LaTache blind, nor a LaSerra from a Monforte blind. I rely on Monktown attourneys for that sort of perspicacity when it comes to terroir. Heck, I couldn’t even tell MtEden Cab from MonteBello Cab blind.

But I do have some sort of sense of terroir in a gross sense. I can often identify the terroir of Lodi or SantaLuciaHighlands or ShenandoahVlly or UkiahVlly or RRV or far SonomaCoast. But probably not blind. I seriously doubt I can identify terroir down to the granularity of a vnyd by vnyd level. Given a Hudson & a LasMadres Syrah, I doubt very much I could identify which one was which blind. I just can’t measure up to the big guys who can do that.

But I was thinking the other day (well…maybe just an hour ago) that I don’t recall there being any white wines that I could identify any of the above-mentioned terroirs in. I can often pick up some of the Lodi terroir in a Calif Zin or Cab. But I have never picked up anything that I would call the Lodi terroir in a Calif Chard. Is it just me…or are there people who can do that??

So…I’m going to state, ex cathedra, that red wines display terroir much more than white wines.

So…for all you experts on terroir…right or wrong?? Not a troll…just a sincere question that inquiring minds would like to know. If you agree w/ that statement, any idea why that would be so??

Tom

I would think that a Lopez de Heredia Gravonia Tondonia would fit the terroir bill for a white. That one is hard to miss.

[DougS]

Tom, I understand what you’re saying now, and although I would still suggest Aubert as a huge exception, I generally agree with you. I don’t pick up much or any sense of place (as I think of it, which I’ll probably realize in another few years is dead wrong) in California whites very often. I don’t know why.

I also agree with the idea that terroir tends to be expressed more clearly in cool climates, but with all things wine related, there are major exceptions to that as well. Zinfandel seems to have the capacity to express where it’s from very distinctly even when grown in warm areas. Nerello Mascalese as well, and I’m sure quite a few others.

[DougS]

@lleichtman

I would think that a Lopez de Heredia Gravonia Tondonia would fit the terroir bill for a white. That one is hard to miss.

I’m assuming you mean Gravonia, not Tondonia. There’s really no way of knowing how much of this wine’s distinctiveness is terroir since the winemaking is unique, is there? I think a lot of it is the winemaking.