Telltale Signs of Watering Back?

[John_Morris]

Tom - How do you know which wines were watered?

In the past – not so much in the last decade – I had California wines where the acid seemed to stick out; it wasn’t integrated at all. It was suggested that this was a sign of overacidification or adding it at the wrong stage. But I’d have no idea how to detect whether a wine had been watered back, unless it tasted pruny/raisiny but was dilute. And I can’t ever recall a wine like that.

[Brian_Tuite]

@Brian Tuite

@D@vid Bu3ker

@Brian Tuite

^ What he said ^

I’d rather have the brix too high and have to water back to adjust than have a wine that is under-ripe and insipid. Of course you’ll get a different response from France where they can legally add sugar. They can pick under-ripe and adjust up. We can’t.

But the sugar only adds alcohol, not flavor, so your “pick under-ripe” comment really makes no sense.

Does it? Since they have a hard time getting grapes ripe in France many years due to the weather they have no choice but to pick under-ripe, or should I say far less ripe than California?

@Marcus Goodfellow

I have always felt that ripeness was related to flavor more than sugar. Cool climate fruit can reach physiological maturity with lower sugar accumulations and warm climate fruit reaches flavor ripeness at higher Brix.
So perhaps rather than calling France under ripe or California over ripe, just saying higher and lower Brix fruit works? It’s a drier way of saying it(no pun intended) but less likely to include an unwarranted judgement on the wine.

Also, I hope things are recovering in California and am glad to see you guys posting.

Well, that wad the basic meaning if what I said. But, as usual, it gets taken to extremes to prove me wrong by those who strive to always be right. Berserk away all.

[John_Morris]

Brian - That old saw that grapes often don’t fully ripen in France hasn’t really been true in recent decades – probably not since the mid-80s. Sheesh! Today you have many Bordeauxs and Rhones wines well over 14%!

Now, you might prefer riper fruit than they typically get in northern areas like the Loire or Burgundy, but there have been few years in the last generation where French winemakers in the prime areas would say their grapes didn’t fully ripen. And there have been years like '11 in California, where some people struggled to reach the ripeness levels they wanted.

[Corey_N]

@Adam Lee

Berry,

Generally, the way I’ve done it is to bleed off the appropriate amount of juice first, then add the water back (with the water adjusted to the same pH as the juice). That way you are just replacing the juice removed with water.

Adam Lee

Adam,

Is your way of watering back the norm? What do you do with the displaced juice? And why not simply add the pH adjusted water to the juice?

Not so funny story I heard from a grower friend…a well known/expensive Napa Cab label buys his fruit by the ton and they control pick dates. They got their pick from him at 40+ brix, so the grapes were raisins. You can see where this is headed…desiccated ripe fruit would require a huge water addition, but the fruit was cheap for the winery. Obviously, the winery isn’t following your formula.

[John_Morris]

@Corey N.

Not so funny story I heard from a grower friend…a well known/expensive Napa Cab label buys his fruit by the ton and they control pick dates. They got their pick from him at 40+ brix, so the grapes were raisins. You can see where this is headed…desiccated ripe fruit would require a huge water addition, but the fruit was cheap for the winery. Obviously, the winery isn’t following your formula.

I heard the same complaint ten years ago from a grower who sold to Rosenblum Cellars for a single-vineyard bottling. He said they wanted riper and riper grapes each year, which meant less and less money for the grower.

[Berry_Crawford]

@Adam Lee

@Berry Crawford

Telltale Signs of Watering Back?

A ripeness to acid ratio that seems suspicious. Generally when grapes are picked very ripe they have high sugar and low acid. When you water back to lower the resulting alcohol you lower the acid ratio even more through dilution so more acid needs to be added.

Berry,

Generally, the way I’ve done it is to bleed off the appropriate amount of juice first, then add the water back (with the water adjusted to the same pH as the juice). That way you are just replacing the juice removed with water.

Adam Lee

That works for you because your starting with grapes that have reasonable chemistry to begin with. A lot of times I’d try wines that clearly have ripeness/alcohol/acid ratios that nature could rarely if ever produce.

[Oliver_McCrum]

I thought the standard ‘96 point’ formula was to pick very late, add water so the fermentation can finish, then de-alcoholise to get the wine down to the ‘sweet spot’ of, say, 14.5%. So it’s water addition plus de-alcoholisation plus (presumably) acid addition. Actual winemakers should chime in here.

[Tom_Gutting]

@John Morris

Tom - How do you know which wines were watered?

In the past – not so much in the last decade – I had California wines where the acid seemed to stick out; it wasn’t integrated at all. It was suggested that this was a sign of overacidification or adding it at the wrong stage. But I’d have no idea how to detect whether a wine had been watered back, unless it tasted pruny/raisiny but was dilute. And I can’t ever recall a wine like that.

John – yes, precisely … at a certain point, flavor profile just doesn’t seem to match the alcohol percentage. Pruny, raisiny, porty, things like that, which just seem not to work out. Exceptions to the rule, of course, and plenty of wines that don’t hit that tipping point.

[Brian_Tuite]

@Oliver McCrum

I thought the standard ‘96 point’ formula was to pick very late, add water so the fermentation can finish, then de-alcoholise to get the wine down to the ‘sweet spot’ of, say, 14.5%. So it’s water addition plus de-alcoholisation plus (presumably) acid addition. Actual winemakers should chime in here.

Yoy thought wrong.

[Chris_Seiber]

@John Morris

Brian - That old saw that grapes often don’t fully ripen in France hasn’t really been true in recent decades – probably not since the mid-80s. Sheesh! Today you have many Bordeauxs and Rhones wines well over 14%!

Now, you might prefer riper fruit than they typically get in northern areas like the Loire or Burgundy, but there have been few years in the last generation where French winemakers in the prime areas would say their grapes didn’t fully ripen. And there have been years like '11 in California, where some people struggled to reach the ripeness levels they wanted.

Way to stick Tuite.

[Adam_Lee]

@Corey N.

@Adam Lee

Berry,

Generally, the way I’ve done it is to bleed off the appropriate amount of juice first, then add the water back (with the water adjusted to the same pH as the juice). That way you are just replacing the juice removed with water.

Adam Lee

Adam,

Is your way of watering back the norm? What do you do with the displaced juice? And why not simply add the pH adjusted water to the juice?

Not so funny story I heard from a grower friend…a well known/expensive Napa Cab label buys his fruit by the ton and they control pick dates. They got their pick from him at 40+ brix, so the grapes were raisins. You can see where this is headed…desiccated ripe fruit would require a huge water addition, but the fruit was cheap for the winery. Obviously, the winery isn’t following your formula.

Corey,

I have no idea if my way of watering back is the norm. I know of a number of people that do it the way that I do, but I know some that do not. As far as the bleed off, we either give it away or send it down the drain. The goal is to make sure that the skin to juice ratio remains the same.

Adam Lee

[Adam_Lee]

@Berry Crawford

@Adam Lee

@Berry Crawford

Telltale Signs of Watering Back?

A ripeness to acid ratio that seems suspicious. Generally when grapes are picked very ripe they have high sugar and low acid. When you water back to lower the resulting alcohol you lower the acid ratio even more through dilution so more acid needs to be added.

Berry,

Generally, the way I’ve done it is to bleed off the appropriate amount of juice first, then add the water back (with the water adjusted to the same pH as the juice). That way you are just replacing the juice removed with water.

Adam Lee

That works for you because your starting with grapes that have reasonable chemistry to begin with. A lot of times I’d try wines that clearly have ripeness/alcohol/acid ratios that nature could rarely if ever produce.

I don’t know about that, Berry. I’ve seen some really odd numerical combinations in my time. Brix near 30 with TAs in the 11s and pHs in the 2.9 range. And vice versa, with low brix and high pHs. Nature can be funny at not always friendly.

Adam Lee

[Adam_Lee]

@Mason H

Here is a telltale sign from the 2015 Ridge Lytton Springs label:

Ingredients: Hand harvested grapes; indigenous
yeast; naturally occurring malolactic bacteria;
0.6% water addition; tartaric acid; oak from
barrel aging; minimum effective SO2
. JO (11/16)

Mason,

Ever figure out what a 0.6& water addition will do? It would take the wine from 15% alcohol to 14.91%. Virtually no difference. My guess is that they watered a few lots back a good bit more, didn’t water other lots and it averaged out at 0.6% water addition.

Unless they mean they reduced the alcohol 0.6% by adding water…then that’s a different story.

Adam Lee

[David_Bu3ker]

@John Morris

Brian - That old saw that grapes often don’t fully ripen in France hasn’t really been true in recent decades – probably not since the mid-80s. Sheesh! Today you have many Bordeauxs and Rhones wines well over 14%!

Now, you might prefer riper fruit than they typically get in northern areas like the Loire or Burgundy, but there have been few years in the last generation where French winemakers in the prime areas would say their grapes didn’t fully ripen. And there have been years like '11 in California, where some people struggled to reach the ripeness levels they wanted.

Exactly. The comment about unripe fruit was what got me started.

[John_Morris]

@Mason H

Here is a telltale sign from the 2015 Ridge Lytton Springs label:

Ingredients: Hand harvested grapes; indigenous
yeast; naturally occurring malolactic bacteria;
0.6% water addition; tartaric acid; oak from
barrel aging; minimum effective SO2
. JO (11/16)

I wouldn’t call that a “telltale sign.” I’d call it (a rare) full disclosure!

[Brian_Tuite]

Funny duscussion. People who like European wines rail on California wines for being ripe. Then defend their wines saying that they haven’t been unripe in decades. Straddling both sides of the fence here guys.

[John_Morris]

@Brian Tuite

Funny duscussion. People who like European wines rail on California wines for being ripe. Then defend their wines saying that they haven’t been unripe in decades. Straddling both sides of the fence here guys.

I don’t see the inconsistency. There’s a happy medium on both continents. Once upon a time, there were a lot of European wines going in the bottle at levels very low by today’s standards – maybe 11.5% or 12%. Some were not very good. That’s rare today.

Meanwhile, you have Napa cab going from an average of 13% or 13.5% in the 70s to a pretty routine 14.5% or 15% now. Bordeaux has been guilty of moving too far in that direction, too. I’m not crazy about these bigger wines in either place.

[Adam_Lee]

If anyone isn’t sure what “ripe” is – we haven’t had any hot water (and now today, no electricity) at our home since Monday — I am pretty sure I smell rather ripe now. LOL

Adam Lee

[Brian_Tuite]

@Adam Lee

If anyone isn’t sure what “ripe” is – we haven’t had any hot water (and now today, no electricity) at our home since Monday — I am pretty sure I smell rather ripe now. LOL

Adam Lee

I have hot water Adam, you can use my shower.

[John_Morris]

@Adam Lee

If anyone isn’t sure what “ripe” is – we haven’t had any hot water (and now today, no electricity) at our home since Monday — I am pretty sure I smell rather ripe now.

Or perhaps like one of those underripe, brett-infested Loire reds.