Taste Sensitivity and Wine Preference

WINE TALK
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[winner.gif]

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[welldone.gif] This guy’s becoming my new hero! [winner.gif] [winner.gif]

Absolutely. Jim - I’m not picking a fight here but -

one reason why she prefers the wines she prefers is she’s always had an abnormally sensitive taste and smell ability

Wow!

Sorry but I can’t help thinking that’s just a load of bullshit from someone who is as self-important as it’s possible to be.

Isn’t she just special?

just that she’s always been more sensitive than the average person.

Wow. The poor dear. It’s a cross she’s had to bear for so long. Frankly, I don’t think she’s in any way abnormally sensitive and I think for her to make comments like that is asinine. Stand next to her as she’s tasting thru a few dozen wines and listen to what she says - nothing particularly insightful. blahblah

Then again, maybe she really truly is special but I wonder how she knows that? Oh yeah. Because she knows how insensitive the rest of us are. Since she knows exactly how I taste, she knows she’s better. Gee, no ego working here.

Anyhow, I think your initial point is probably accurate. I’m sure when you were a kid you did that taste test with a little strip of paper - some people tasted nothing and to other people it was incredibly bitter. That’s genetic, like being able to roll your tongue. So I think it’s not possible, but a fact that some people have more sensitivity to certain flavors and tastes than other people do.

On top of that, you have your family and cultural background. We have friends who have a little girl. He’s Italian, she’s Greek and since the little girl was born, she’d be snacking on olives, pickled foods, sharp cheeses, sausage, lemons, etc. She has absolutely no sweet tooth at all. As she grew up, her friends thought her tastes were weird. I had a Jamaican girlfriend and she’d eat food that was scorchingly hot. Couldn’t stand anything that had any alcohol in it though - found it sharp and unpleasant. So we have our genetic backgrounds and our cultural or food-sense backgrounds that affect our preferences.

Then wine itself is its own mini-world. Some people grew up in the Loire valley, some in Dry Creek Valley and they head into the wine world with different reference points for what’s good and bad. Or you have people who grew up in neither and who start trying wines from all over and finally settle into something that they like, drinking mostly that and eventually that colors their world and becomes their reference. I don’t think there’s any inevitable evolution and that people end up with things that are supposed to be more subtle or elegant or whatever. I’d bet I probably taste as much wine as anyone on this board and I sure as hell don’t think I need to drink Burgundy, nor do I think it’s the epitome of wine. Intellectually, I have an interest in tasting as much different wine as I possibly can, but no doubt have a certain sweet spot for some qualities over others and it seems like you’ve found yours, and perhaps it’s evolving.

Seems perfectly fine to me!

Cheers!

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Snobbishness is a natural and very, very ugly temptation, it is true. But I find it patently unfair – and smacking of simple envy – to accuse an Alice Feiring of it. Sure our tendency to self delusion is always there, but the fact is that some senses are more finely tuned. If you don’t like this fact, I’m sorry. I did say – and she said – that her ability to interpret that incoming data may not be all that great, but just that she’s getting more data than the average person.

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I was talking about you as well Jim. You seem to think that you’ve ‘evolved’ a finer sensibility - that’s nonsense in physiologic terms. Of course, you could argue that you’ve learned to discriminate better than most of us by, uh, experiencing less since you don’t drink many bottles. This is sheer pretension. Sorry, but someone who drinks, if I recall correctly, a bottle a month doesn’t get to lecture those of us who’ve tasted thousands of fine bottles over a period of decades about the variety and quality of wines out there. Try again.

As for AF, Fiering puts forth no evidence to support her claim that she’s more sensitive than most. And what does that really mean anyway? Physiologically sensitive to certain flavors? A supertaster (in the accepted sense of having significantly more tastebuds than normal)? Or is it merely pretension designed to elevate her opinion above others? Since she doesn’t define what she means, she simultaneously gets to defend herself with vagueness and reap the benefits of the gullible who want agree with her and want to feel like they’re thus better than others who might not. She’s got a history of being provocative, but… yawn.

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Hey look, superiority and pretension! Not to mention an unprovoked personal attack. Cheers!

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Rick, I like you and respect your opinion. But it’s a small sandbox here. Please try to play nice with others.

I’m not suggesting moderation beyond the self-kind, but just think about the other guy for a second before hitting submit.

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Brady - Jim’s edited his post from the version that I replied to. When I replied, the post said, basically, “some wines are better than others and if you don’t like it tough”.

Keep in mind that JIm’s previously said he drinks very little wine, literally a bottle a month or so if I remember his post correctly. I find it a bit presumptuous for someone who’s drinking about a case a year to adopt a lecturing tone to a community that routinely experiences a lot more fine wine than that. His first post also seems to me to want to place himself on a pedestal with AF - that by drinking less, he’s somehow a better taster than most people. Arguing that you’re better than normal opens one up to others questioning the basis for that.

K. John - Not pretentious at all. See above. You’re reading a slightly edited version of Jim’s post from the one I replied to. And there’s no personal attack whatsoever. I’m not saying Jim’s stupid, a bad person or anything of the sort. I’m saying that it’s a bit much for someone who’s previously said he drinks very little wine to lecture people with much broader experience on the fact that some wines are better than others which is what the post initially said.

I did say – and she said – that her ability to interpret that incoming data may not be all that great, but just that she’s getting more data than the average person.

And again, where’s the basis for “she’s getting more data than the average person”?? What does that even mean?

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Rick - Aside from the initial post, I think Jim said that he attributed his newfound sensitivity to some wines to his new low-carb diet, and to a much lesser extent his infrequent drinking. And even then, he wasn’t saying he is a better taster, a more apt wine critic, etc. He was just saying that a wine he recalled being restrained seemed big now. I didn’t see anything saying Jim was now a master critic, or that his newfound sensitivity enabled him to pick apart wines, notice complex flavors, etc.

That’s why I said your attack was unprovoked. But, if Jim’s comment was edited, I am standing on shaky ground, since I don’t know what was originally said.

I agree with you that AF’s comments appear to be total pomp. Saying that you get more incoming data than the average person is a very difficult assertion to prove. How do you know? Are you basing that statement on anecdotal evidence? Bill, do you taste the cat pee in this Cloudy Bay SB? No, oh dear, you must not be receiving the same data. Do you taste the lime, slate, and hints of rosemary? No? You get lemon, limestone, and hints of cut grass? Oh dear…so much less data!

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Holy smokes, I edited within seconds of posting for fear of being misunderstood. Guess it wasn’t fast enough.

History: Though I didn’t make the universe, Rick is apparently mad at me because some things are aesthetically superior to other things.

Having said that, he may also be mad at me for a good reason. What I haven’t emphasized enough, and therefore is good criticism for me, is that, like Alice, I am not extremely confident in my ability to differentiate between the good and the lesser. I have my honestly held opinions, but am cognizant enough of my personal limitations for there always to be reasonable doubt. Which is why I like to talk about such things with others.

But if you remove the possibility of genuine aesthetic superiority of say a Vogue Musigny over a bottle of Ripple, the conversation gets kind of short and unfruitful.

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One more thing. It’s not that difficult a thing to determine you have more sensitive tastes than the average person. And it’s not necessarily a good thing if you’re a taster. I think folks misunderstand that basic point. There is such a thing as oversensitivity to the point where you only like a glass of water with a grape waved over it.

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Jim,

I have no idea what the “average person” is – much less what the “average person” is able to taste. How is that determined? Where can that information be found?

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

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I heart pedantry.

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When this thread popped up, I really, really wanted to start an over/under on the number of posts it would take for it to (d?)evolve into another aesthetic absolutism/relativism debate. It’s almost like a special version of Godwin’s law for this board.

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I’m not mad at you at all. I never disagreed that some wines are better than others either. However, I find it precious for someone who’s in the past stated that he drinks a bottle of two a month to lecture this community about wine aesthetics given the amount of fine wine we collectively taste. I mean, really, do you think that by saying some wines are better than others you’re telling anyone here anything that we don’t already believe?

Having said that, he may also be mad at me for a good reason.

Still not mad at you.

What I haven’t emphasized enough, and therefore is good criticism for me, is that, like Alice, I am not extremely confident in my ability to differentiate between the good and the lesser. I have my honestly held opinions, but am cognizant enough of my personal limitations for there always to be reasonable doubt. Which is why I like to talk about such things with others.

Fair enough, but then I’d argue you can do more for yourself by trying more wines. All of the aesthetic philosophy in the world doesn’t give you actual experience.

But if you remove the possibility of genuine aesthetic superiority of say a Vogue Musigny over a bottle of Ripple, the conversation gets kind of short and unfruitful.

Where in this thread did anyone do anything of the sort?

One more thing. It’s not that difficult a thing to determine you have more sensitive tastes than the average person

What does “have more sensitive tastes” mean? Rather, what do YOU mean by it?

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On the topic, I’m not sure how much heredity, training and bad habits play into the overall picture of sensitivity/preference.

My dad lost his sense of smell and taste by age 55. He never smoked and didn’t drink other than a glass of Mogan David once a year. As a pilot in WWII, there was a lot gun powder residue inside the B25, from constant firing of the guns, including a 105mm howitzer in the nose, (but that’s another interesting story). The only other alcoholic beverage I ever saw him drink was some wine he made at home using Concord grapes and about 30 pounds of sugar. [barf.gif] In his later years, Dad put hot peppers on a lot of his food to give it some “flavor.”

Then there’s me. I drink, smoke and like my dad inhaled a lot of gunpowder residue along with those chemicals given off during welding. While I never had a trained nor exceptional palate, I did have a pretty good sense of smell until about age 50. I started my developing my appreciation for wine in 1979 (age 30), with Cali Cabs, primarily Silver Oak and similar styles wines. As my sense of smell and taste waned, I moved to Aussie wines, MP, Shirvingtion etc., that I could still smell and taste. Surprisingly, as I expanded into S/B and Pinot I started enjoying their character. In retrospect, I actually started over seasoning food about the same time. That is also about the same time I was prescribed Allegra for my allergies. Today, I chase aromatics by placing a “Wine Chapeau” on my glass and swirling the heck out of the wine. I don’t just sip a wine. I chew it, swish it through my teeth, crush it on the roof of my mouth with my tongue and suck air through it to coax every flavor I can from a wine. There are days I can taste the wine very well, but can’t smell it. Hence, I tend to prefer “fruit forward” wines. I think with some education/training, I could discern and come to enjoy some of the nuances of “old world” European wines. Lightly corked wines are “earthy” and flat to me. Carrie intentionally gives me the corked wines saying they are Burgundian, so she doesn’t have to pour them out. (It still has alcohol [thumbs-up.gif]). YET, if a woman/man comes into the store wearing heavy perfume/cologne, not only do I smell it, I may start sneezing and if I’m drinking wine, I can no longer taste or enjoy it.

I’m not familiar with Ms Feiring so I have a couple questions.

Question 1: Does she have a trained palate and worldly knowledge of everything edible/smell-able, how do you know exactly what you are tasting/smelling? I’ve never eaten a currant. How would I know when a wine has that character? Caveat: I have smelled a barnyard and its not on my fine wine list.

Question 2: Does/was Ms Feiring wear/wearing perfume? If I were at a tasting where any expert “nose” and/or “palate” was wearing perfume/cologne or in close proximity to somebody who was, I would challenge their interpretation/perception of the wine they are tasting, unless of course there is training available for wine tasting beyond perfume/cologne overload.

Done with rant. Time to go have dinner.

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Randy - to question 1, no. That’s based only on her own writing however, because she may secretly have been “trained” somehow. Of course, I don’t know if she has eaten currants, but I grow them. My grandparents used to grow white, red, and black ones and we’d eat those all summer. I just grow the red and black.

To question 2, no, and again, that’s just speculation for the date(s) in question but she hasn’t whenever I’ve been around her. She simply claims, with no evidence other than her ego, that she’s more sensitive than other people. We’re clumsy and oafish. She’s a delicate flower with her own fragrance, which makes sense if you’ve seen her.

See second page.

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However, as I posted above, there is genetic proof that some people have different taste receptors than others, for certain flavours. Doesn’t make them better, just different.

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I’ll avoid the deeper issues that people are jumping on (and which I have opinions on) and give my own answer to Jim’s original question.

I think that I’m much less sensitive than my friends in terms of smell and taste. My wife and my 9-year-old daughter are much better than me in picking out individual smells, I’m really bad at that. I do tend to be a good taster though becuase through a lot of experience I can pick things out, not through detailed sensation, but through matching it up with experience (it’s about perception and memory, rather than more detailed sensation). For me tasting isn’t so much a bottom-up sensory thing (and in fact no one has conscious access to sensation), but an appreciation through experience, I think about the wine, not just “sense” it.

So I have no idea how my “taste sensitivity” affects my preferences. All I know is that I’m not very sensitive but I really like Burgundy, Champagne, German riesling, and white Loires, and I tend to dislike soft, fruity Australian and American wines.

Cheers,
-Robert

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Thank you Mr. Thornton.