I never said to not discuss it Serge. Just wondering aloud why you feel the need to grind your axe so heavily here. It is very transparent and distracting. Maybe you can take it up with Mark? No one here seems interested in your personal conflicts.
Dieter…I mean Serge. Can I pet your Macaque?
Kind of agree with some of your points, but it’s a lot more fun to watch. ![[popcorn.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/1/1ca9f29573458cca2424a66a50d6c1261081dd3e.gif "[popcorn.gif]"){kind=small}
RT
Is that gonna have a screw top closure?
Has anyone seen Serge and Greg Piatigorski in the same room together?
Serge, you seem like a nice enough guy (as is Greg), but you won’t give it up.
I agree(d) with you! The price is too high. Others have agreed with you. You are perseverating (I love that word) for no apparent reason.
Sorry for not searching your ample history of posts, but do you like Oregon pinot and if so, which ones do you find to have good quality to price ratio?
I think Oregon leads the way in the $20-30 range and also leads the way in overpriced pinot. Quite a dichotomy. There is Westrey, Ayres, J. Christopher, Albin, Patty Green, Eyrie, hell, recently none other than Jim Arterberry Maresh released a $20 pinot and then there are the likes of Beaux Freres, Domaine Serene, Domaine Drouhin, Dusky Goose, Archery Summit, Penner Ash, etc.
Sorry, i’m not getting this whole thread.
Seems to me St Innocent is priced just like say Patty Green and many others.
They have an entry level wine and a number of cuvees and svds priced $35-45.
These are the retail prices, but most if not all will be available at discount at retail in my experience.
And yes there are some small (<100 cs) select bottlings for more. Probably not in the general market place. Patty Green also has Notorius at $70. There are many OR pinots priced higher. Just don’t buy them. I don’t.
BTW, I paid $19 for the SI Villages Cuvee. Not a pretentious price anyway.
This is all much ado about nothing. The Special Selection cuvees are such a tiny part of Mark’s output that it is overreaching to invest the pricing level with too much importance. Generally I find his pricing from the blend to SVD levels to be about in line with the average Oregon pinot producer’s pricing level. The fact that all of his releases, save the Special Selections are all under $50 is a credit to him.
The 2008 Special Selection bottlings are priced exactly the same as the 2007 and 2006 Special Selections so while there may have been a jump from 02 it has stayed flat the last three releases.
Prices at St. I have been fairly static over the last 3 years. Also the new facility is a joint venture with an events center that is another revenue source. So the winery is not bearing the full burden of recouping the investment in the facility . . .
personally, i’ve liked the wines on the few occasions i’ve had them, and i’ve found them to be the most Burgundian of the Oregon pinots I’ve had. so, i don’t have a problem with them using the term Villages. it’s not like there’s real chance of confusion among consumers- i read it as paying homage in a way, and i understood it to mean it’s their appellation blend so i think it works just fine…
Reason may be setting in here. How is $60 for special cuvees deserving of such flak? Patty Green is a great example. What about DDO’s Laurene, not to mention Louise? What about so many CA pinot noir that roll at that level on discount? I’m not a buyer. I have no interest in St. Innocent, though I do buy from the Zenith vineyard where St. Innocent is located. But certainly this isn’t exceptional, no? Such and such percentage increases from '02 don’t mean much to me. In absolutes, these are still low for the high end. Are we holding St. Innocent’s modest pricing for pretty much everything else against them?
As most know I am a fan of SI and over the years have become friends with Mark and the “Chateau” owner Tim but I didn’t think the original post was mean spirited. I myself will probably be skipping the 08 futures do to my own $$ constraints but this limited non retail bottling which will be world class quality is still cheaper than many Oregon pinots and many many Cali pinots. This is cheaper than a KB SVD and probably superior for many palates.
Hate to see SI getting burned when they have been a low price leader. Prices have risen so it gets attention. But there are still many bottlings that are incredible value for the quality. Now SI does have a distinctive quality. They are often unique and I find that interesting.
And regarding the digs, remember that SI operated out of a warehouse in the city for 20 years. One of the most unglamorous facilities I have ever visited.
I do agree that the whites are major stars of the line up. And they age very well.
It is too bad they don’t get Brick House or 7-Springs anymore but I am excited about Justice and Zenith.
Just got my 07s so I’ll be cracking one soon.
Cheers,
Jason
Everything has gone up in price from 02-milk,gas,orange juice, and light bulbs. The dollar is going to continue to get hammered and thusly we will wonder why a Porter House Steak that was once 38 bucks is now 65…The 02 Seven Springs is probably one of the top candidates of that vintage and still is in it’s infancy. If you like to drink Pinot Noir with more than a decade on it then I would argue that SI is one of the better values out there.
I think I understand the initial post… $ 60 for futures of an Oregon Pinot Noir. Now remember I am a winemaker in this lovely valley, but like many folks, my budget for wine has decreased over the last year or two… Food, Housing, Grandchildren or wine - all an easy choice.
What I hope comes out of posts like these, is that are good values along with great quality out there if you look and explore.
I agree that $ 60 is aggressive, why the pricing is as it is, who knows, just for me, it’s very far out of my comfort zone.
There are many wines that never hit these boards, that are indeed of a quality that you can appreciate, and also taste before you buy. For an example, this year I tasted Evasham Woods twice and bit on all he offered, at nowhere the price that St I is asking for something site unseen
As far as thier new digs, I have only seen pictures. Carrying that forward to Zenith vineyards, I worked with thier fruit in 2007, but for me I cannot get over that for years it was the O’Conner vineyard and rarely got vineyard designate from wineries. Its hard for me to imagine that just because a new owner has taken over the site, made improvements in the years they have controlled it, that the grapes can all of a sudden change so much. PR is great, pretty buildings are nice, but bottom line, I want value, and value I can taste before I spend my money.
I will say again what I have said for years… Wine is often about the journey of experimentation, rather than following the lemmings off the cliff.
I mean this in the best possible way to Mark V and Zenith, it’s just that there are too many good/great wines to explore rather than stepping up at this price tag for something that might be great in the future. I know they are both very sincere and passionate about what they do, I just think that I would rather spend my money in the best possible way for ME.
Cheers !
Linda
Wow, hadn’t noticed so many replies to my original post.
Jason is right, my reaction wasn’t mean spirited, more bewildered. I really didn’t get the Special Seclection part of the offering, and haven’t seen any other offers from SI in the last year or more, so I guess my assumption was that this was essentially an offer for one of his SVDs. I guess I also had a somewhat negative reaction to the use of the word “futures” in this context, since it implies that the wine will be offered again later at a higher price. This was the case with the Freedom bottling I bought previously. In fact, the futures price was very low on that offer–worth paying nearly a year in advance. Maybe I was overthinking it. And yeah, I’ve bought some California Pinots for more than $60, I don’t begrudge a quality product demanding a reasonable premium.
I hereby retract my “WTF”. 
Do I detect a flip-flop?
Happy Holidays!!!
I dropped St. Innocent a couple of years ago. The price was just getting too high and I could usually find the wine on sale at substantial discounts. I did enjoy them, but there are better wines at lower price points these days.
I am a supporter of St. Innocent and they are the only wine club I belong to. Many good values there-look at the Viilages Cuvee-so I don’t begrudge Mark from the $ 60 offer, especially for Special Selections…especially when Beaux Freres was at that cost or more a few years back. Anyhow, each to his own, there are many people who are spending $ 75 plus for California pinots…as for me, I will buy little of this and concentrate on the better value wines from Oregon and California.
Agree that the prices are full, but not crazy, and the lower-level wines have typically been good value in the past.
Has anybody actually tasted any of the 08s?
I do think that it silly that you will not recognize ‘village’ but you have no problem talking about their ‘chateau’?
Jb
I might have been a bit ahead of the curve as I had dropped off their wine club about 2 years ago over rising prices. I don’t think that $60 is overpriced given where the quality is compared to other $60 wines, but while the SI wines used to be a bargain, they are no longer. SI: Thanks for the earlier values; I have lot’s of 1999-2005 to cellar and drink, and I have moved on.
![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Not really a comment about prices… I tried to like Saint Innocent pinots but just could not warm up to them. To tannic for their own good IMO, and too juiced up with oak, with that dill note others have mentioned (barrel derived I’m pretty sure). I’m not looking for a fight, and I know SI has many fans, but the style is not my favorite.
Just found this thread and did not have it in mind when I drank a bottle of '08 St. Innocent Villages Cuvee a couple weeks ago. Thus no formal tasting note. Good wine, regardless of price. A Pinot of this quality for $22, especially one that will improve with a few years of bottles age, is an exceptional qpr.
In a vintage such as 2008, I don’t see the need to pay the premium for special selection wines.