Sorry, but you didn't buy that corked bottle from us!

Paul_Luckin · February 21, 2017, 1:12am

Mike Evans:

Paul Luckin:

just to take up for the Tasting Room Manager for a minute:

it makes perfect sense that the winery didn’t have a record of the sale, since the actual transaction didn’t take place at a POS or even through the back end of the website. if the winemaker is not the principal, and the winery has a policy of only refunding, replacing, or exchanging bad bottles when there is a paper trail, then he (or she) is doing right by the winery by following the procedure in place.

now, having said all that, i’m of the mind that in customer service it’s “Better to be kind, than to be right” so i think Brian should be made whole on that bottle one way or another. but the TRM did act appropriately if the winery’s policy is as such.

i’m probably in the minority opinion on this, so flame away.

Paul, it may be right that it is the winery’s policy, in which case the winery and not the tasting room manager is the proper target for derision and scorn for adopting an inexcusable policy. The winery released a defective product and should be responsible for replacing it.

agreed.

Brian_Tuite · February 21, 2017, 1:18am

Here’s a related story. About 6 years ago an American tool company which I am sure most of you have heard of, S&K Tools, went bankrupt and was bought out of bankruptcy by another comapny. They restructured SK Tools and relaunched it a couple years later. Their policy is to not honor the lifetime warranty of any SKTool sold before the bankruptcy. Due to that policy change they lost me as a distributor and thousands of people as customers.

The winery in question in this thread was sold and the winemaker has a library of wines that he amassed before the winery changed hands that were not a part of the sale. There is no underhanded dealing or trickery going on here. AFAIAC the TRM in several notches below the winemaker in importance to the winery. The winery would not be the same without this winemaker and hospitality personnel come and go often. I have bought a lot of wine from the mailing list and have also reloaded, from WineBid and other sources, bottles that I enjoyed but could no longer buy direct. This deal with the winemaker was one of those reloads of vintages released before I was a list member. The treatment I got from the TRM guaranteed my never buying direct again. In the future I will only buy where I see a value play or not at all. In my opinion companies who do not stand behind their product do not deserve my business. My customers would never accept it from me either. I see the value in this. Obviously this fellow does not.

I’m sure the winemaker in this case will do the right thing.

NoahR · February 21, 2017, 1:39am

If I could figure out how to get that eating popcorn image to show when I’m posting from my phone, I would. Suspense killing me now

Brian_Tuite · February 21, 2017, 1:50am

Type → popcorn.gif
Then put it between these brackets →

Paul_Luckin · February 21, 2017, 2:06am

Brian Tuite:

Here’s a related story. About 6 years ago an American tool company which I am sure most of you have heard of, S&K Tools, went bankrupt and was bought out of bankruptcy by another comapny. They restructured SK Tools and relaunched it a couple years later. Their policy is to not honor the lifetime warranty of any SKTool sold before the bankruptcy. Due to that policy change they lost me as a distributor and thousands of people as customers.

The winery in question in this thread was sold and the winemaker has a library of wines that he amassed before the winery changed hands that were not a part of the sale. There is no underhanded dealing or trickery going on here. AFAIAC the TRM in several notches below the winemaker in importance to the winery. The winery would not be the same without this winemaker and hospitality personnel come and go often. I have bought a lot of wine from the mailing list and have also reloaded, from WineBid and other sources, bottles that I enjoyed but could no longer buy direct. This deal with the winemaker was one of those reloads of vintages released before I was a list member. The treatment I got from the TRM guaranteed my never buying direct again. In the future I will only buy where I see a value play or not at all. In my opinion companies who do not stand behind their product do not deserve my business. My customers would never accept it from me either. I see the value in this. Obviously this fellow does not.

I’m sure the winemaker in this case will do the right thing.

hey Brian, a question:

with regard to the actions and correspondence with the TRM, were you more disappointed with the message (i.e. “Sorry Charlie”) or the way in which it was delivered?

Mike_Sale · February 21, 2017, 2:16am

Oh man, I cannot wait to find out who it is!

Michael_Martin · February 21, 2017, 2:41am

Or just click on the emoji

Brian_Tuite · February 21, 2017, 2:44am

Good question Paul. The business man in me as well as the customer in me were upset with the poor customer service. I strive to always do right by my customer, even when they are wrong.

Brian_Tuite · February 21, 2017, 2:45am

You can’t do that on the mobile version of WB.

Michael_Martin · February 21, 2017, 2:48am

Hmmm, does for me.

Brian_Tuite · February 21, 2017, 3:02am

Could you please point it out for me.

Ian_Sutton · February 21, 2017, 11:30am

Hi Eric
That is effectively where I end up, figuring going back to a retailer 5-10 years after purchase, without a receipt, and if purchased via the internet, with a significant logistical barrier for resolution… is it really worth it?

I have been better in recent times though, of putting the retailer in CT, and also of keeping invoices. So if I felt strongly (or in the case of Aldo Conterno Barolos from 1997 & 1998 where there was a consistent fault) I feel better equipped to take it up.

For those that do return bottles (as we all should IMO - recognising I’m not practicing what I preach!), I do expect wineries / retailers to take it seriously. Those that replace with museum stock to get the same vintage get extra respect. Those that just say ‘latest vintage’ and no recognition of cellaring costs get less respect. In addition I understand the gripes of people offered a weak current vintage as replacement for a sought after vintage they’d cellared carefully for years.

regards
Ian

Jay_Miller · February 21, 2017, 2:20pm

Try going to preview first. Sometimes that allows me the full range of emojis.

Brian_Tuite · February 21, 2017, 3:10pm

Michael_Martin · February 21, 2017, 3:46pm

I have the full browser view on my iPad so that’s the difference. Carry on.

Brian_Tuite · February 21, 2017, 4:00pm

Michael_Martin · February 21, 2017, 4:01pm

A thousand apologies from me. [smileyvault-ban.gif]

larry_schaffer · February 21, 2017, 4:15pm

Ian Sutton:

Eric LaMasters:

I guess I’m in the minority here, but I tend to think of the risk of a corked bottle as just part of buying wine. While it is great if a winery replaces a bottle, I would never expect it - especially if I did not buy it directly from the winery.

Hi Eric
That is effectively where I end up, figuring going back to a retailer 5-10 years after purchase, without a receipt, and if purchased via the internet, with a significant logistical barrier for resolution… is it really worth it?

I have been better in recent times though, of putting the retailer in CT, and also of keeping invoices. So if I felt strongly (or in the case of Aldo Conterno Barolos from 1997 & 1998 where there was a consistent fault) I feel better equipped to take it up.

For those that do return bottles (as we all should IMO - recognising I’m not practicing what I preach!), I do expect wineries / retailers to take it seriously. Those that replace with museum stock to get the same vintage get extra respect. Those that just say ‘latest vintage’ and no recognition of cellaring costs get less respect. In addition I understand the gripes of people offered a weak current vintage as replacement for a sought after vintage they’d cellared carefully for years.

regards
Ian

Ian,

Interesting points. Do you feel that most wineries normally have a good back stock of library wines? They probably should, but I don’t believe most do.

I would not therefore feel disappointed if a past vintage were replaced with a current one. There is no way to account for the possibilities of returned bottles, especially years after initial release.

Perhaps if it’s a really ‘valuable’ wine, a winery could offer more in return - but I’m not sure how ‘practical’ that is.

This wine business can get pretty tricky . . .

Cheers!

Ian_Sutton · February 21, 2017, 4:36pm

larry schaffer:

Ian Sutton:

Eric LaMasters:

I guess I’m in the minority here, but I tend to think of the risk of a corked bottle as just part of buying wine. While it is great if a winery replaces a bottle, I would never expect it - especially if I did not buy it directly from the winery.

Hi Eric
That is effectively where I end up, figuring going back to a retailer 5-10 years after purchase, without a receipt, and if purchased via the internet, with a significant logistical barrier for resolution… is it really worth it?

I have been better in recent times though, of putting the retailer in CT, and also of keeping invoices. So if I felt strongly (or in the case of Aldo Conterno Barolos from 1997 & 1998 where there was a consistent fault) I feel better equipped to take it up.

For those that do return bottles (as we all should IMO - recognising I’m not practicing what I preach!), I do expect wineries / retailers to take it seriously. Those that replace with museum stock to get the same vintage get extra respect. Those that just say ‘latest vintage’ and no recognition of cellaring costs get less respect. In addition I understand the gripes of people offered a weak current vintage as replacement for a sought after vintage they’d cellared carefully for years.

regards
Ian

Ian,

Interesting points. Do you feel that most wineries normally have a good back stock of library wines? They probably should, but I don’t believe most do.

I would not therefore feel disappointed if a past vintage were replaced with a current one. There is no way to account for the possibilities of returned bottles, especially years after initial release.

Perhaps if it’s a really ‘valuable’ wine, a winery could offer more in return - but I’m not sure how ‘practical’ that is.

This wine business can get pretty tricky . . .

Cheers!

Hi Larry
Very few IMO would have a full back library, and even some grand ones have gaps - a friend has a wonderful anecdote of the time Ch. Petrus bought 2 bottles off him to fill in a gap they had! It’s not everyday Ch Petrus phone you up to buy Petrus off you!

I would be surprised if someone at the winery wasn’t collecting a vertical, and IMO it’s good practice to learn from how each wine ages. That might just be the winemaker or owner for their private enjoyment. If they are in the habit of replacing with correct vintage, then a bad batch of cork could easily run them out of that vintage very quickly.

Most will treat this as a purely commercial deal - make wine, give it as limited ageing as you have to, and look to sell through wherever possible, though even these folk might hold back bottles of their top wine(s) for tastings / events. I’ve certainly been to some very much ‘non-exclusive’ tastings where back vintages have been shown.

Others make a point of holding back greater volumes, for planned museum releases (Borgogno, Tahbilk, Bests, etc.), often in the well-regarded ‘vin de garde’ vintages. In Borgogno and Bests’ case, it shows the price differential between museum stock and current release - at least in their eyes.

I agree with you that it might not be feasible to replace with the same vintage, but recognition of that additional cellaring cost is sensible e.g. If a 1996 Grange were returned, and only current vintage were available, then replacing with current vintage and throwing a Bin389 would at least show understanding. A bad example though as current vintages have an RRP greater than secondary pricing of older wines!!!

regards
Ian

larry_schaffer · February 21, 2017, 4:53pm

Ian,

I agree with all of your points - but the way our industry works and talks right now, there is no appreciation for cellar costs whatsoever. And unfortunately, in this county, there is no impetus for that to change at all. And that is being led by the non-action of most folks to return corked bottles, simply chocking it up to the way things are. And this is simply wrong IMHO.

Cheers.