Some really excellent Chablis and a question about premoxed wines

Gautier,
You may have a point that people overuse the term premox.It used to be if a wine was tannic etc people said it was vinegary. Then writers got obsessed with TCA and people started finding cork taint where there was none.On the other hand, local enologists in charge of quality control here told me they could not get below 3% taint, and eventually Diam came out of this.

My first experience with TCA was at a tasting I attended in 2002 where 6 out of 8 Montrachets from the 1996 vintage were oxidized. Needless to say, people were unhappy. Then I had more experience with the issue. White wines from the Cote de Beaune are not cheap.

Gautier,what do you think of the issue of glutathione-- or lack thereof-- as a cause of premox.
And who sells your wine in Northern California??

Corks aren’t the problem. Bad corks are a problem. Diam isn’t a panecea.

Andrew,
I don’t know if diam is the answer either. Are technical corks ‘preserving’ wine but not letting it develop??
If I knew the answer, I would have a 900 number.

One more thing: as pH goes up, the need for SO2 increases. It does not diminish.

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Mel,

If people like William, who drink more white Burgundy in a year than I do in a lifetime, have not tasted a wine bottled using DIAM that is premoxed, what is your objection to DIAM? Why isn’t it the answer?

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With not a lot of experience I still tend to agree. Wines under DIAM from 2010s seem way too young, almost perfectly so, suggesting what many others are saying that wines don’t develop at all or very little over long periods of time.

Not sure about how precisely they can control oxygen penetration through DIAM, but they seem to have developed techniques for the screwtops. I wonder if we’re going to see a shift after 10-15 years when it’s obvious that DIAM isn’t the answer for wines you want to age.

To me it sounds like you and perhaps Mel are trying to have it both ways. Get perfectly aged white Burgundy but do it in ten years. It took longer than that before the era of premox.

Funny enough I am just sipping the 2015 Clos des Briords (DIAM5) and it is most definitely not the same supremely youthful and tight wine it was when I opened my last bottle three years ago.

David,
At my age twenty years is too long.

I am not complaining, just wondering.

On the whole, I like technical corks. Having opened corked bottle of things like '83 Ch Margaux, I appreciate not worrying about TCA. Many friends who sold wines wholesale said they learned to open up and taste every sample bottle before hitting the road.

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At MY age 20 years is too long, but that’s what it used to take. There’s no reason it should be different now if we want the same kind of results.

David,
So true.
The interest of the business side of winemaking is all about the process of getting money from somebody else and doing it faster.
People are bottling early, making smoother wines that are ready to drink sooner, etc. If Meursault is drunk at a restaurant in NYC 30 months after harvest, the bean counters are happy.

Look at Bordeaux. Winemaking is completely different from what is what it was fifty years ago. Will wines made in 2010 age the way the wines of our youth did?? On the other hand, there is no need to wait twenty years.

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Unfortunately, there is. Bordeaux drinks younger nowadays but it still tastes like young Bordeaux, just more approachable. If you want that tertiary, savoury, balanced goodness, you still need to wait.

But you’re right that maybe it won’t be 20-30 years anymore. Maybe 15-25? 10-20? Time will tell.

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We have to remember that wineries talk tradition but they are always changing.
Winemakers love new toys. Sometimes they throw the baby out with the bathwater and sometimes the results are great.

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Such a fascinating thread - thanks for sharing all. The problem seems so complex and I understand where everyone is coming from with regards to possible causes and solutions.

@William_Kelley , since you are literally in the heart of it over there, have most producers you know changed how their wines are made - whether or not they’ve switched to DIAMs or not? Has the use of SO2 increased? What about pH adjustments if need be?

And why DIAM 30s instead of 10s or 20s?

Cheers.

We tasted 48 2000 Bordeaux reds back in 2021, hardly any had much or any tertiary aromas yet. Same with a 16 1998 right bank reds tasting 6 months ago. Hardly any tertiary development yet. The 1990s are slowly getting there. I guess it still takes 30 years. From what I tasted I don‘t expect the top wines from 09/10/15/16/18/19/20 to get there faster.

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A lot of producers did indeed respond to the problem by bumping free SO2 at bottling, in plenty of cases to >50 ppm.

There is generally speaking more attention to dissolved oxygen pick up during wine movements and bottling as well, though in some cases still not enough.

Obviously there has been a trend towards more reductive ĂŠlevage when the wines of today are compared with those of the 1990s.

And some producers are thinking about skin extraction, must oxidation etc quite hard too.

None of this, however, has been enough to stop premox, and there really aren’t any producers who are immune to it once you get to 10 years after the vintage. Before anyone says that’s just oxidation, not premox, tell that the the great white Burgundies from the '60s and '70s in my cellar that are still drinking just fine.

If you’re going to use DIAM, you may as well use the 30, and then reduce your SO2 to 20-25 ppm. It doesn’t make much sense to use the 10 and then add more SO2 to compensate. And “Diam 20” doesn’t exist.

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That certainly isn’t the case for producers such as Guffens-Heynen, Fèvre or Droin, to name just three in Burgundy.

What can happen is that in the first few years after producers transition to Diam, they use excessively high free SO2 levels and the wines’ evolution is somewhat arrested. They can even get quite reduced as was the case with Lafon’s 2013s.

It also appears to be important to keep your total SO2 below 100 to avoid a somewhat drying, sulfate-inflected finish.

But this is just a question of technique.

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delete

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People here want the impossible. Wines where there is no premox, but that taste perfectly aged much faster than was traditional.

I think premox has been around so long now that many people have no memory of how long it took for great white Burgundies to get fully mature.

You do know that the binding agent is a plastic.

They now have a version that uses beeswax.