I can see what you say about pour less volume. But if he doesn’t or if the higher absorption rate with higher ABV is a factor, that could be it. The first drink will have Less to do with your liver’s ability to process alcohol. It got in your bloodstream, maybe faster with higher ABV? Then your body starts working on it. The “feel” is your reaction to BAL. maybe he doesn’t tolerate higher BAL as well as before?
I thinkFM just clarified the first glass comment. For me I feel it in the second glass. Feeling it may mean different things to different people. I’m not sure.
To reiterate, and I am not trying to be snarky here, people need to drop the concept of 7.2% less in their reasoning when talking about zero order kinetics. It displays a fundamental lack of understanding in how this aspect of physiology works.
I’m not sure I can convey my thoughts on this better. Maybe someone else can.
Science begins with observation. We try to figure out the world. Many times people come up with weird logic to explain the observations that feeds their existing beliefs. Maybe blaming a wine style they don’t like for their effects could be one. Maybe not. Misusing science or logic can be another way of finding the wrong answer. I love the Monty Python witch trial I the Holy Grail. “A duck!”
Physiology is non linear. I’m going to pass the torch to hopefully a physiologist or hepatologist here who can hopefully shed some more light, correct anything I or others have said.
I think there are preconceived beliefs here that people are reluctant to abandon. I’ve looked into this in the past to better understand alcohol toxicity, and this is the data I have learned. I went i with open eyes trying to understand it better and this is the best information I could learn. I am not a physiologist, but have a pretty good understanding of the basic science and physiology and am pretty good at telling bullshit from real science when reading scientific articles, and when I didn’t understand, I had really smart friends who helped understand or told me when I was wrong. This is my best effort to share what I have learned and to try to put some understanding behind people’s observations. I could be wrong or only partly right. People can choose to believe what I think is the explanation. Your choice.
Todd, the link that Anton provided in his earlier post makes zero-order pretty easy to understand, at least to me.
RM, I don’t believe I said that it was apparent with one glass. What I said, or instead let me clarify what I am meaning. Often times, if you pour me something at 14-16% and I have a glass of it, I start to feel it. Do the same with a glass of Champagne, the same feeling/perception is not present.
We can argue about the math here and semantics about what is, but I am telling you guys that my body is not taking to the bigger ABV wines anymore. Whether that is a function of zero-order mechanics, or age, or both, my view into how I have to treat the way I enjoy the hobby now has to change. Today will be a good test for my approach. There will probably be 15-20 wines in my backyard today. I know there will be Champagne, which I will probably stick to and drink. For any larger ABV reds, I will probably taste and spit. Along with my usual of lots of water and food, but with some better pace now.
For some of you who don’t seem to have challenge with higher ABV wines, I’d like to see you post your age. If we’re going to have some fair context here, then it would be helpful to see how young some of you are that enjoy these higher ABV wines. Again, I am 53.
Frank, I’m 55 and I have a solution. Give me all your non-Champagne wines. I will save you from their ill effects and I will promise to drink them all as part of controlled scientific investigations
Todd, enjoy the heat out there. Maybe you can open a big Napa Cab (make sure it has lots of alcohol, of course) and enjoy the afternoon with it.
Anton, I have to say that I enjoy your sense of humor. You seem to have a way of mixing opinion, logic and humor across the forum. I appreciate that and your posts.
RM, I’d like to preserve your presence here on the Board so I will have to decline your request. I do though recommend you drink some Champagne today and remember it was me that bestowed that wisdom upon you.
Alan, usually not, as lots of times it is just a bottle or two with my wife, or Brig, etc. And when I am drinking Champagne, it is often dominating the setting these days. For every bottle on non-Champagne, there usually is at least a 1 to 1.5-2 ratio of Champagne next to them. So, if I am going to survive to RM’s age, I will have to manage some spitting in settings with lots of wine, like what will be happening here today.
For many dinners and tastings we bring our own glassware, I keep a stack of paper cups in my case to use for spitting. And if I’m in a restaurant that is supplying stems, I’ll ask for a coffee mug to use as a spit cup. Where I live I’m usually driving, so it’s imperative to minimize alcohol consumption, even without thinking about how it affects me the next day.
Im sure you are aware of anti-CGRPs that hit the market a year ago? And if so Alder had an IV anti-CGRP that will hit the market in Jan? Perhaps worth a look… been a game changer for many… but I am no doctor
I have an interesting study that was recently published that stated that most of the alcohol absorbed is from the stomach not the duodenum. If you give a beer, wine and whisky the duodenal concentration of all three is exactly the same. The only thing that seemed to make a little difference was the presence of a fasting state which increased the absorption of the alcohol. The non fasting concentrations in the stomach were higher. I have posted the pubmed abstract here. The interesting thing about this is that concerning absorption, the small % of alcohol we are discussing here has little effect probably on what we are discussing. The stomach is VERY efficient at absorbing liquids.
The induction of hepatic enzymes, sensitivity to ethanol (tolerence level) and function of alcohol dehydrogenase (genetic) probably have more effect. Thus the way Todd described the issue is accurate to me. It has to do with clearance from the body primarily not absorption.
Mol Pharm. 2017 Dec 4;14(12):4202-4208. doi: 10.1021/acs.molpharmaceut.7b00252. Epub 2017 Aug 11. Gastric and Duodenal Ethanol Concentrations after Intake of Alcoholic Beverages in Postprandial Conditions.
This study determined intraluminal ethanol concentrations (stomach and duodenum) in fed healthy volunteers after the consumption of common alcoholic beverages (beer, wine, and whisky). The results of this study were compared with a previous study in fasted volunteers. Five healthy volunteers were recruited in a crossover study. The fed state was simulated by ingestion of 250 mL of Nutridrink Compact Neutral. Volunteers subsequently consumed two standard units of beer (Stella Artois, 500 mL, 5.2% ethanol), wine (Blanc du Blanc, 200 mL, 11% ethanol), or whisky (Gallantry Whisky, 80 mL, 40% ethanol). Gastric and duodenal fluids were aspirated through two catheters over time and analyzed for ethanol content by head space gas chromatography. The capability of ethanol to permeate gastric and duodenal rat mucosa was examined in an Ussing chambers setup. A similar average gastric Cmax was observed in the beer and the wine conditions: 3.3% and 3.7% ethanol, respectively. The gastric Cmax in the whisky condition amounted to 8.5% ethanol. Lower ethanol concentrations were observed in the duodenum compared to the stomach. The duodenal Cmax was similar in all three conditions: 1.3%, 1.2%, and 1.6% ethanol for beer, wine, and whisky, respectively. Compared to the fasted state (reported in a previous study), higher gastric ethanol concentrations were observed during a longer time period. In the beer and wine conditions, similar concentrations were observed in the intestine regardless of the prandial state. After intake of whisky, however, the ethanol concentration was lower in the fed intestine. Alcohol was observed to permeate both gastric and duodenal rat mucosa. Higher intragastric ethanol concentrations were maintained for a longer period of time in fed compared to fasted state conditions. However, the observed concentration profiles were not in line with current FDA guidelines for alcohol resistance testing of formulations, stating that in vitro tests should investigate the impact of up to 40% ethanol for 2 h. The presented intraluminal ethanol concentrations may serve as reference data for the further development of relevant in vitro models to assess ethanol effects on formulation performance.
KEYWORDS:
alcohol; alcoholic beverages; clinical study; intestine; intraluminal ethanol concentrations; stomach
PMID: 28731350 DOI: 10.1021/acs.molpharmaceut.7b00252
[Indexed for MEDLINE]
This is from a forensic group on metabolism. Fasting state is everything. The elimination rate is half the fed state. The saturation of the system happens much quicker. You can also see that people who drink all the time have double to triple the elimination rate. I have one more paper. It discusses carbonation.
Forensic Sci Int. 2010 Jul 15;200(1-3):1-20. doi: 10.1016/j.forsciint.2010.02.021. Epub 2010 Mar 20. Evidence-based survey of the elimination rates of ethanol from blood with applications in forensic casework.
Jones AW1.
Author information
Abstract
Reliable information about the elimination rate of alcohol (ethanol) from blood is often needed in forensic science and legal medicine when alcohol-related crimes, such as drunken driving or drug-related sexual assault are investigated. A blood sample for forensic analysis might not be taken until several hours after an offence was committed. The courts usually want to know the suspect’s blood-alcohol concentration (BAC) at some earlier time, such as the time of driving. Making these back calculations or retrograde extrapolations of BAC in criminal cases has many proponents and critics. Ethanol is eliminated from the body mainly by oxidative metabolism in the liver by Class I isoenzymes of alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH). Ethanol is an example of a drug for which the Michaelis-Menten pharmacokinetic model applies and the Michaelis constant (k(m)) for Class I ADH is at a BAC of 2-10mg/100mL. This means that the enzyme is saturated with substrate after the first few drinks and that zero-order kinetics is adequate to describe the declining phase of the BAC profile in most forensic situations (BAC>20mg/100mL). After drinking on an empty stomach, the elimination rate of ethanol from blood falls within the range 10-15 mg/100mL/h. In non-fasted subjects the rate of elimination tends to be in the range 15-20mg/100mL/h. In alcoholics during detoxification, because activity of microsomal enzyme (CYP2E1) is boosted, the ethanol elimination rate might be 25-35 mg/100mL/h. The slope of the BAC declining phase is slightly steeper in women compared with men, which seems to be related to gender differences in liver weight in relation to lean body mass. The present evidence-based review suggests that the physiological range of ethanol elimination rates from blood is from 10 to 35 mg/100mL/h. In moderate drinkers 15 mg/100mL/h remains a good average value for the population, whereas in apprehended drivers 19 mg/100mL/h is more appropriate, since many of these individuals are binge drinkers or alcoholics. In preparing this article, a large number of peer-reviewed publications were scrutinized. Only those meeting certain standards in experimental design, dose of alcohol and blood-sampling protocol were used. The results presented can hopefully serve as best-practice guidelines when questions arise in criminal and civil litigation about the elimination rate of ethanol from blood in humans.
(c) 2010 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.
Again from the forensic guys. They really have an interest here. This shows that carbonation has a variable effect on absorption. About 2/3 of the people had some increase in absorption. Some didn’t change and some actually showed a slowing. The hypothesis is a little flawed here because diluted drinks tend to be consumed faster than high % ones. FWIW.
RE: OP I don’t doubt FMIIIs observation. To me this is something that is more likely due to reaching a threshold for metabolism. It is easy to dismiss someones observation as biased but I would hate to do that and miss something important. That to me is that we all have these thresholds for saturation of our system. Unless you are willing to drink heavily to induce your enzymes or some other manuever, you need to heed these and follow your best instincts. My opinion only.
J Forensic Leg Med. 2007 Oct;14(7):398-405. Epub 2007 May 16. Alcohol concentration and carbonation of drinks: the effect on blood alcohol levels.
Roberts C1, Robinson SP.
Author information
Abstract
Alcohol absorption and elimination vary considerably amongst individuals, and are subject to influences from a variety of factors. The effects of alcohol concentration and beverage mixer type on the rate of alcohol absorption, in a controlled environment was studied. 21 subjects (12 male, 9 female) consumed a solution containing alcohol, on three separate occasions. The three solutions were, A: Neat vodka (37.5 vol%), B: Vodka mixed with still water (18.75 vol%), C: Vodka mixed with carbonated water (18.75 vol%). The volume of alcohol each subject consumed was determined by Widmark’s equation. The alcohol was drunk in a 5 min period following an overnight fast and breath alcohol concentrations were measured over a 4h period using a breathalyser. 20/21 subjects absorbed the dilute alcohol at a faster rate than the concentrated alcohol. The difference between the absorption rates was found to be significant (p<0.001). The use of a carbonated mixer had varying effects on the alcohol absorption rate. 14/21 subjects absorbed the alcohol with the carbonated mixer at a faster rate, with 7 subjects showing either no change or a decrease in rate. The mean absorption rate for solution C was 4.39+/-0.45 (mg/100ml/min), and the difference between this absorption rate and that with the still mixer (1.08+0.36) was significant (p=0.006).
PMID: 17720590 DOI: 10.1016/j.jflm.2006.12.010
[Indexed for MEDLINE]
Just to clarify my point on absorption, it doesn’t seem to matter. It will be complete in the stomach and very rapid. What DOES matter is fed status, hydration and hepatic status as concerns hepatic clearance. As you can see hepatic clearance is affected more by fed status and prior alcohol intake than absorption. That is why these things matter. It is a clearance problem not absorption. They affect your hepatic clearance and saturation point for toxicity. Hope this clarifies.
Arnold has Asian Flush Syndrome so I tend to serve lower alcohol wines (most often Spatlese or Auslese) with dinner. One night when I tried im with a 9% Kabinett as opposed to a 7% Spatlese he reacted after the first sip saying, “Wow, this wine is much higher in alcohol than the one you served last week.”
Todd and Don have done an excellent job explaining the science of alcohol absorption, metabolism/clearance, and their effect on what we feel.
Frank, I’m 63 and noticed a couple of changes in my ability to handle alcohol over the years. Some time in my late 30s I noticed a decrease in the amount needed to produce a poor night’s sleep and a crappy morning after. I adjusted with smaller pours and/or spitting at large tastings.
Similar to you, in my late 50s I noticed a decrease in the amount needed to feel a little buzz after ~30 minutes and then fatigue an hour later. This seemed correlated to higher ABV wines whether white or red, still or bubbly. I think that fits with the science as Todd and Don have explained it, even though the amount of ethanol in a 16% wine isn’t that much more than a 14% wine.
I’m fortunate to enjoy German Riesling, much of which is 10% ABV or less. I still drink big reds with high ABVs, but more slowly and only a glass or two over the course of an evening. And I’ve reduced my consumption at tastings even further.
Another benefit to spitting when visiting wineries is that they take people who spit more seriously. It shows them you are interested in the wine and not just in getting a buzz.
Ironic that you should post this just now. I fell back into my cycle. Took the associates downstairs for coffee at 4:30. Home at 7. Still have about an hour of work in prep for an 8:30 public hearing. And really really enjoying that fine Bordeaux, glass three, right now. Tomorrow, some butt must be kicked. The goal is not mine.
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