Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol

WINE TALK
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A few lines of discussion, but to me, this is the most central. And the most apropos for the Board, as I’m guessing that most people here are 40+ or maybe even 50+.

Wine has been a major part of my life for most of my life. It’s a daily enjoyment with meals. I do not drink during the day, and generally in the evenings, it is with moderation. I also do not drink for the sake of drinking; I’d use hard liquor over wine were that the case. Wine is a beautiful thing, so complementary of life. Weekends are off-record.

Now that said, all of us are kidding ourselves if we think our bodies remain immune to the effects of wine as we age. There is a body of substantive literature on this subject, some evolving, on how it directly impacts sleep more significantly, later in life. This point is particularly true for men, with a sizable percentage of men in their 50s having symptoms of sleep apnea and obstructive breathing during sleep.

I have personally noticed it over these last 2 years. I am 53.

I have a very high energy level and a very active life, and have never really noticed much of an issue from moderate consumption, say 2-3 glasses per night. My body also seems to metabolize alcohol quite well.

Now I notice it more. It’s not higher alcohol wine, as I tend to avoid them. It’s the simple consumption. Alcohol consumed before sleep effects your sleep.

My concierge physician happens to be in our wine group. All of us are over 50, athletes, and all work too hard, push too hard. For himself, and us, he’s been doing a lot of research on this subject, and has outlined some pretty basic tenets to balance these things. His central point is that deep, quality sleep, is critical to longevity and an active older age. His recommendations are not ground-breaking, they are pretty intuitive really, but I bet most (like me) violate them most days:

  • No more than 2 glasses per night
  • Last glass 3 hours before bed
  • Wine with food
  • no coffee past noon
  • no working out 2-3 hours before bed
  • snack before bed recommended
  • hot shower or bath before bed
  • no iPhones or laptops in bed - something about the emitted light stimulates the brain
  • read before bed

Like I said, I violate most of these things. And I sleep like crap. My sleep has also gotten worse these last couple of years in this middle-age. While I can still power through the day, sometimes my head is a little foggy, or my body sluggish. It’s not the alcohol, it’s the lack of quality sleep brought about by all of these factors. And factors due to physiology - i.e., obstructive breathing.

So what’s a person to do? I cannot lead a monastic life. I’ve always been a “more is more” kind of guy. But some adjustments are necessary.

Last night I violated almost everything above. So pardon the long-winded cathartic this morning. It’s my penance.

champagne.gif

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Robert, the issue with electronics before bed is there’s a concern, and lots of marketers product claims, that blue light emitted from your device suppresses the production of melatonin.

I need to read more.

23

IT’S NOT JUST THE ALCOHOL! Although alcohol adds fuel to the fire.
If you have noticed that your tolerance to alcohol has become worse as you get older you probably have an airway issue (apnea) or GERD (acid reflux).

Does your SO complain about your snoring? Or did they stop complaining because they are sleeping in another room?
Are you tired in the morning or in the afternoon? If you have noticed changes in your sleep as you get older (especially if it’s alcohol related) then you should have a sleep study and get checked for GERD.
Aging increases your risk for apnea as does weight gain and even being pre and post menopausal. Sleeping on your side or stomach is best for your airway and you will snore less.

If you have apnea or GERD alcohol makes it worse even if you are sleeping with a cpap or a MAD appliance.
If you are having issues I would take Robert’s advise which is posted above. However I don’t agree with the snack before bed. Maybe this was a typo? It is good if you are trying to gain weight.
You should have no food or drink, except water, for at least 3 hours before going to bed. If you are drinking bottled water make sure the ingredients do not contain acid.Some people
think alkaline water helps but it doesn’t work for me. I have GERD.

If you have airway issues or acid reflux start drinking early. Most wineries are open at 11AM for a reason. Go to bed completely sober unless it’s Friday or Saturday night or any other special occasion like still breathing!

24

Do you think your increase of Champagne consumption in the last 3-4 years has lowered your body’s “physical tolerance” for high ABV wines?

Do you frequently drink any wines past 14% ABV or any spirits?

25

I used to think this way, but now as I get older I think it’s wrong. There is something nonlinear that happens with higher alcohol wines. The difference between 12.5 and 15.5% wines for me is not simply a linear scaling up. I’m totally comfortable splitting a bottle of 12.5 wine with someone, or even drinking more than half a bottle of 12.5 at times. But I start feeling the 15.5% alcohol wine right away, and it’s unpleasant after a glass. It feels like a difference in kind as much as degree. I don’t know if others feel this way but I find it pretty noticeable.

Also, to others – spitting and dumping out wines at big tastings or wine dinners works wonders. As does making sure you have a leisurely three hours for the dinner and drinking water throughout.

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I agree about the three hours and lots of water (at least one glass of water for every glass of wine consumed). But I hate spitting. There I said it.

To be a tad too graphic – spitting is like using a prophylactic to me. It’s often the most prudent and advisable thing to do, but it just don’t feel the same. I want the full range of sensation when drinking wine. Not tastus interruptus (Sorry if I’ve offended decorum here, it’s just the most apt sensory analog I can come up with …)

I too have cut back on glasses consumed in a typical, non-event night. I keep it to 2-3 glasses. But as my wife doesn’t really drink, I find myself with a lot of half-drunk bottles. And I’m with Dennis Atick on this one – I also hate half bottles from the night(s) before. They just lack freshness to me … sort of like leftovers in the fridge. OK, but just not the same. Plus, there are so many other bottles I want to try so it’s hard to get excited about the one from 2 nights before. I know that sounds wasteful and profligate, but it’s the truth.

27

you guys should get business cards or something for this. [snort.gif]

28

Taking a break for some lunch and away from research I am doing…I am glad to see my topic generate some discussion.

To expand on a few things I saw posted above. And FWIW, I am 53.

I often spit when I am in settings where a lot of wine is being tasted but it has become evident now to me that if I don’t practice this consistently, I will end up not feeling great. And, of note, I do drink a lot with Chris Seiber (really enjoy that BTW), and in our tasting settings, we do very small pours, probably 1.5 ozs. I can do OK in these settings but a few weeks ago, we did 14 bottles blind over about 3 hours and I spit some and also dumped some, but it still was not enough even with the heavy amount of table water I was chugging down. But, the premise to spit in volume settings, that is the right advice and I agree with it.

As to this premise of ABV 12.5 is to 14.5 being a linear one, I like a few others here do not agree with that premise. While I find it very logical, I do not personally find it working that way. As Marcus said well in his post, he doesn’t see this as linear either. Whether the logical math has to bear this out, I am not convinced it ever will. Even with a glass or so of 14.5+ wine, I begin to feel it and the negative affects. Whereas last night, my wife and I shared a portion of a Brochet BdB over dinner that we drank down to about 1/3rd remaining, and while I did the good portion of this, I didn’t get a headache nor feel any ill effects this morning. So, while I appreciate the numeric logic behind scaling up with alcohol, I do believe that age disturbs this logic, as much as Alf Jr. commented above. The premise that this stuff is linear fails for me.

Water…I agree this helps when the setting is not about a few glasses or a few bottles over a few hours. At a Champagne event (one that Brig Campbell attended with me), I drank several liters of water during that event (probably 4-5 total), starting before I got there, and across the 4+ hours I was there. We probably tasted 15-20 wines, mostly Champagne but some still red, some big red was in there, too. I actually did better that day but the practicality of drinking as much water as I did, along with some spitting, seemed like something for me that is not sustainable.

So, I thank you all for the posts and I do hope we see some more discussion.

29

I agree with Marcus. Anton’s math makes sense, but both my wife and I can tell a big difference between 12.5 and 15.5. On a weeknight, at 15.5% my wife ends up falling asleep on the couch at some point before we go to bed - and we rarely even finish the bottle. At 12.5 we finish a bottle, and aren’t too buzzed, etc.

By law, the percentage of alcohol on the labels could be off, too. It is possible that the wines at 12.5 may have struggled to get to that percentage, and may have been chapitalized or rounded up to get there. The wines at 15.5 or 16% may have been rounded to down to avoid taxes on higher percentages of alcohol or even consumer perceptions.

30

It’s an interesting topic for sure. I respect those of you who drink at tastings, but can’t do it. I will drink the occasional really nice pour, but everything else goes down the drain. (Like a recent visit to Burgundy, where one producer we visited also spat every barrel pour other than his Clos de la Roche, stating “this one I do not spit” [snort.gif].) Also makes visiting wine country easier :slight_smile:

I also agree with those of you who notice a difference in higher alcohol wines - I have mostly stopped drinking new world wines (I also like them a lot less) and it has made a significant difference. To me the alcohol level matters, even if it does not to others. I appreciate that it’s 10-15%, but that doesn’t mean 10-15% isn’t significant. Wafer thin mint, and all that.

The main thing I’ve tried to do is to become far more aggressive about simply not drinking things I don’t like. I’ve started doing this more after going to a couple of large events and realizing that there is far too much wine, so why not drink the best stuff? I dump much more aggressively now. If anything, my worst mornings are now after events when everything people bring shows well, because it all gets drunk. That doesn’t mean I won’t come back to bottles later in the evening to see how they’re showing, but I take small pours and if something isn’t great, I’m fine with a very small taste which then goes into the dump bucket.

31

This is all fascinating.

Can the affected people tolerate one glass of Port?

What happens if you guys have one serving of 43% ABV Scotch?

In this non-linear idea, it would seem drinking one Scotch would be crushing you guys.

Do one martini or limoncello seem as bad as that glass of 14-15% glass of wine?

_

Side drift, do you get stuffy noses with drinking wine? If so, does it seem to have a greater response to higher ABV wines?

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How much Scotch/limoncello/port per serving do you drink? When I have any of those, it tends to be in quite small amounts (half a glass of port, small shot of limoncello, etc.) which causes it to be less than a normal glass of wine. The point isn’t that drinking a thimble of Zinfandel will send me into a coma, it’s that if I drink a bottle of it over dinner I do notice a significant difference between that and drinking a 13.5% bottle of something else.

33

The reason I asked was that one person said he noted the negative effect of 15% ABV wine with the first glass, so it made me wonder what higher ABV beverages would do.

People also seem to be jumping into and out of serving size. If this is ‘non-linear’ as some have mentioned, I was curious about similar “normal” servings of those higher ABV drinks. Does it also happen after just one glass? Does triple the ABV make it appear after 1/3 of a Scotch? Etc.

Since this is the internet, you are right, we should be quantifying what a “serving” is!

12 oz of beer
5 ounces of wine
1.5 ounces of distilled spirits.

Reasonable?

5 ounces of 13% wine is 0.65 oz alcohol.

5 ounces of 15% wine is 0.75 oz alcohol.

Makes me wonder what else might be taking part in such early negative effects!

Products of natural fermentation might be different for people than a similar amount of alcohol from a distilled spirit.

I’d be interested in seeing if those small differences in ABV between wines bring with them more of something else that makes people more uncomfortable.

34

There you go…using science to counter our “feelings” [wink.gif]

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I agree and disagree :slight_smile:

The alcohol is linear, it’s simple math. If you drink 5.2 oz of 15% wine in the same time frame as 6 oz of 13% wine it’s the same amount of alcohol entering your body.

But I agree there are a number of nonlinear effects that could make you take notice of the difference.

For instance if you drink the same amount of the higher ABV and at the same rate as the lesser ABV then of course you will be getting more alcohol but also at a faster rate so your body will be less able to keep up with the additional alcohol. This would be amplified by the rate at which you are drinking and it’s likely your body is less able to keep up as you get older so the effect is also amplified by age.

1 Like
36

That’s some pretty good advice. The one that surprises me is the snack, unless it’s something light, like a yogurt. I remember reading that the half life of caffeine in your system is on the order of 8 hours. So if you drink coffee at noon, you still have a quarter of that caffeine circulating around at 4am! I’m always amazed by people who can have an espresso at 10p after dinner, I’d be bouncing off the walls in the middle of the night :wink:

Can a snack before bed include a shot of single malt?

37

Typically low carb, good protein, like a turkey cold cut, cheese stick, etc.

Low glycemic index, keeps glucose steady for those whose sleep may suffer that way.

38

I definitely feel the difference from low to moderate to high alcohol wines. For sure, there’s the dramatic difference in direct introduction of alcohol to the bloodstream. There seems to be more at play with higher alc wines, too. It’s not 100%, but the higher the ABV, the more heavy and dull they seem, the less pleasure they give. How much of that is an absolute value of overly extracted elements, how much is a relativistic perception, I don’t know.

Port I’m really picky about. Some of that is extractive issues, which is the same as other great wines built for aging. For those, tasting them too young can be interesting, but drinking isn’t enjoyable. As far as the alcohol, there’s usually a burn. I drink them essentially the same as a fine spirit - very small sips, well paced out.

I was taught how to properly drink Scotch. Tiny sip, let it spread across your palate as the aromatics bloom. I was apprehensive the first time I went to a high-end Scotch tasting, but the way we drank it allowed for teeny pours. The pacing and the quantity (and the food pairing) made the alcohol a non-issue.

I feel the same as someone above about higher ABV beers. They tend to be heavy, dull, clumsy, tiring. The alcohol often sticks out. Most of them seem so far out of whack, it’s hard to comprehend what they were thinking. Maybe the product a sort of “cellar palate” skewed by drinking all day, every day, completely out of touch with nuance and balance.

39

I’ve had stomach issues where a little something would be easing before bed. Otherwise I’d wake up after 4 hours and absolutely need something.

My grandma used to have a scoop of ice cream with a cup of coffee to help her go to sleep. Coffee won’t keep me up, either. But, if I’ve had too much I’ll wake up in the middle of the night with a buzz. I’m generally smart enough to avoid that…

40

And the Affogato was born!