Should Petrol Be Considered A Flaw In Riesling?

[Neal.Mollen]

Simple. Not a flaw. But disqualifying for me.

[Michael_S_Monie]

I always get a kick when people get their panties in a wad at the asking of a question, stupid or otherwise.

[brodie_thomson]

Yawn.

This comment reveals more about you than anyone else the thread.

[Scott_Brunson]

I really love Petrol in Riesling when I am at a blind tasting.

[maureen_nelson]

I have always hated the smell of what I refer to as “fossil fuels” e.g., that asphalt smell in young Coche and some other white burgs. My father was in the gasoline business and when we stopped at a gas station while on a family road trip, he would dally and walk around inspecting the station. I would plead with him for us to get going as I couldn’t breathe in all of the stink. I couldn’t wait to get an electric car so I could quit putting gas in my car.

That said, it’s been years since I picked up the smell of petrol in riesling and I drink a lot of it.

[JohnMag]

I love the smell of petrol in the Riesling.
— Col Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

[MikeL238]

I love it. What are some proeucers/vintages that exhibit strong petrol scent that I should be on a lookout for?

[Otto_Forsberg]

@larry_schaffer

Petrol is also common in Grenache Blancs.

This is the first time I’ve heard of this and Google doesn’t seem to offer any kind of support for this claim. Nor have I ever smelled petrol in any Grenache Blanc or Garnacha Blanca I’ve tasted - and I’ve had quite a many of them from all over the world (admittedly, not a single varietal GB from California, though!).

I’m not saying it’s impossible, since many varieties do develop TDN precursors. However, with almost all of them, the levels of TDN remain below detection threshold, so even if the wines might contain some TDN, nobody would be able to notice it.

So I was wondering that if your GB’s truly show noticeable petrol character consistently, would it be possible that the local terroir somehow boosts the levels of TDN precursors in GB grown there? I know terroir influences Riesling so that certain vineyards never develop any petrol character because the soil type suppresses the development of TDN precursors so noticeably. Perhaps it could work the other way around with some varieties?

Whatever the case, I definitely wouldn’t claim that petrol is common in Grenache Blancs, because it just isn’t the case. I’ve understood Riesling is unique in its propensity to develop TDN upon sunlight exposure and only few varieties are capable of developing TDN in levels that it can be detectable - and even then it remains relatively low. I’ve never seen GB described among varieties capable of developing any noticeable TDN.

@larry_schaffer

My guess is that the skins also contain TDN but no study has clever been done.

I’ve understood that TDN precursors develop mostly in the skins due to direct sunlight, but they leach quite readily into the must during the crush.

[Robert.A.Jr]

@Otto_Forsberg

@larry_schaffer

Petrol is also common in Grenache Blancs.

This is the first time I’ve heard of this and Google doesn’t seem to offer any kind of support for this claim. Nor have I ever smelled petrol in any Grenache Blanc or Garnacha Blanca I’ve tasted - and I’ve had quite a many of them from all over the world (admittedly, not a single varietal GB from California, though!).

I’m not saying it’s impossible, since many varieties do develop TDN precursors. However, with almost all of them, the levels of TDN remain below detection threshold, so even if the wines might contain some TDN, nobody would be able to notice it.

So I was wondering that if your GB’s truly show noticeable petrol character consistently, would it be possible that the local terroir somehow boosts the levels of TDN precursors in GB grown there? I know terroir influences Riesling so that certain vineyards never develop any petrol character because the soil type suppresses the development of TDN precursors so noticeably. Perhaps it could work the other way around with some varieties?

Whatever the case, I definitely wouldn’t claim that petrol is common in Grenache Blancs, because it just isn’t the case. I’ve understood Riesling is unique in its propensity to develop TDN upon sunlight exposure and only few varieties are capable of developing TDN in levels that it can be detectable - and even then it remains relatively low. I’ve never seen GB described among varieties capable of developing any noticeable TDN.

@larry_schaffer

My guess is that the skins also contain TDN but no study has clever been done.

I’ve understood that TDN precursors develop mostly in the skins due to direct sunlight, but they leach quite readily into the must during the crush.

When I saw that I wondered if he meant Pinot Blanc. I certainly get hints of petrol from that grape, especially the Zumbrecht bottlings.

[David_Bu3ker]

Larry doesn’t make Pinot Blanc.

[T.Schmucker]

Does the TDN/petrol note commonly show up in Riesling’s close relatives like Kerner, Silvaner, Müller-Thurgau, Scheurebe, and Rieslaner?

[Otto_Forsberg]

@T.Schmucker

Does the TDN/petrol note commonly show up in Riesling’s close relatives like Kerner, Silvaner, Müller-Thurgau, Scheurebe, and Rieslaner?

Some Kerners I’ve tasted have been aromatic so close to Riesling that I suspect they might’ve had some TDN (somewhere very close to the detection threshold).

Btw, I believe Silvaner is not related to Riesling in any way.

[David_Bu3ker]

Silvaner is that “uncle” who isn’t actually related.

[larry_schaffer]

@Otto_Forsberg

This is the first time I’ve heard of this and Google doesn’t seem to offer any kind of support for this claim. Nor have I ever smelled petrol in any Grenache Blanc or Garnacha Blanca I’ve tasted - and I’ve had quite a many of them from all over the world (admittedly, not a single varietal GB from California, though!).

I’m not saying it’s impossible, since many varieties do develop TDN precursors. However, with almost all of them, the levels of TDN remain below detection threshold, so even if the wines might contain some TDN, nobody would be able to notice it.

So I was wondering that if your GB’s truly show noticeable petrol character consistently, would it be possible that the local terroir somehow boosts the levels of TDN precursors in GB grown there? I know terroir influences Riesling so that certain vineyards never develop any petrol character because the soil type suppresses the development of TDN precursors so noticeably. Perhaps it could work the other way around with some varieties?

Whatever the case, I definitely wouldn’t claim that petrol is common in Grenache Blancs, because it just isn’t the case. I’ve understood Riesling is unique in its propensity to develop TDN upon sunlight exposure and only few varieties are capable of developing TDN in levels that it can be detectable - and even then it remains relatively low. I’ve never seen GB described among varieties capable of developing any noticeable TDN.

Otto,

All I can say is that every GB I’ve ever produced, from a few different sites and picking at differing sugar levels, has developed petrol notes over time in bottle. I’ve had plenty of other domestic versions and blends containing GB that have exhibited petrol notes as well.

How many ‘aged’ GBs have you had? Again, it’s not necessarily something that shows young but definitely develops over time.

Cheers

[M.Kaplan]

I’ve become more sensitive to and less tolerant of things that stick out in wine that detract from my ability to smell and taste the characteristics I enjoy, whether inherent in the grape/wine (TDN, pyrazines) or a flaw (TCA, brett), or a winemaking decision (ripeness/abv, wood treatment). More than a whiff of TDN petrol in Riesling is too much for me.

I love fossil fuel (creosote) aromas and flavors in pre-GlenMonsanto Ardbeg, but not in Riesling.

[larry_schaffer]

@M.Kaplan

I’ve become more sensitive to and less tolerant of things that stick out in wine that detract from my ability to smell and taste the characteristics I enjoy, whether inherent in the grape/wine (TDN, pyrazines) or a flaw (TCA, brett), or a winemaking decision (ripeness/abv, wood treatment).

This resonates with me - to me, ‘balance’ requires nothing to ‘stick out’ but everything to be discernible but still in harmony.

I don’t drink Riesling all that often, so when I do, I truly enjoy the petrol notes because they are unique. If ALL that I get is petrol, though, I’m disappointed.

Cheers

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

I’ve noticed it in 3 different Grenache Blancs:

1. Larry’s 2006 (from Santa Ynez Valley);
2. Kinero’s 2009 (Paso Robles); and
3. Rachero Cellars’s 2009 (Paso Robles)

[Otto_Forsberg]

Alright, all of them are from the US. I’m starting to wonder if it has something to do either with the terroir or clonal material, since a huge majority of the wines I’ve tasted have come either from Spain or the south of France.

How much a GB usually needs to develop those petrol notes, ie. what counts as an “aged” Grenache Blanc? I’ve had a number of aged Grenache Blancs, but I have no idea how long one should keep a GB for it to develop any petrol character.

[Anders_G]

I was at a tasting of aged Timorasso wines from the Piemonte region some years ago. Several expressed petrol flavors, some pretty significant. I was quite surprised as before I had only noticed this in aged german Riesling.

[ChrisJames]

Thanks for adding this. I had a 2017 Massa Timorasso “Derthona” a few weeks ago that also showed obvious petrol character.