Should Angelus and Pavie have been promoted to Premier Grand Cru A alongside Cheval and Ausone?

[Gerhard_P]

@Mark Golodetz

It is hard to know what is going on behind the scenes, but I am pretty sure that the promotions of Pavie and Angelus were responsible for the departure Eric D’Aramon.

It was always the ambition of Thierry Manoncourt who was Aramon’s father-in-law to see Figeac promoted, in fact, he was quite vocal that Figeac should have been in 2006. His widow was probably all right as long as nobody else made it, but then Pavie and Angelus were raised, and I suspect it was seen as a slap in the face in the face, hence the changes.

Well, sad to hear and read, but … seriously:
which Figeac vintages after 1982 and 1990 (which I both love) are up to 1er GCC A-level?
Not 1998 (but it´s good), not 2000, not 2003 …
2005? Maybe - but I haven´t tasted it for 6 years … nor have I tasted 2009 and 2010 at all.
Nevertheless, IMHO the performance over two decades is far away from top level …

[Sanjay_Nandurkar]

Cannot comment much about Angelus but Pavie from 2003 was undrinkable and 2005 was also over the top. I haven’t tasted the 2000 Pavie yet although I have three in my cellar (do not know what me purchase them).

The Cheval Blancs I have had have all been great. I do not think Pavie is in that league.

[Loren_Sonkin]

I love both Pavie and Angelus, but no, I don’t think they are first growths. More like super seconds.

[Mark_Golodetz]

@Gerhard P.

@Mark Golodetz

It is hard to know what is going on behind the scenes, but I am pretty sure that the promotions of Pavie and Angelus were responsible for the departure Eric D’Aramon.

It was always the ambition of Thierry Manoncourt who was Aramon’s father-in-law to see Figeac promoted, in fact, he was quite vocal that Figeac should have been in 2006. His widow was probably all right as long as nobody else made it, but then Pavie and Angelus were raised, and I suspect it was seen as a slap in the face in the face, hence the changes.

Well, sad to hear and read, but … seriously:
which Figeac vintages after 1982 and 1990 (which I both love) are up to 1er GCC A-level?
Not 1998 (but it´s good), not 2000, not 2003 …
2005? Maybe - but I haven´t tasted it for 6 years … nor have I tasted 2009 and 2010 at all.
Nevertheless, IMHO the performance over two decades is far away from top level …

Gerhard,
That begs a slightly different question, which GC class are you asking about? if you are comparing them to Pavie, I would say all of them, and generally they are at least as good as Angelus. We did a vertical at the chateau three or four years ago, and were extremely impressed by some of the wines, although they perhaps lacked consistency.

To answer your real question which compares Figeac to Ausone and Cheval, that is more interesting. Going back to 1990 (Ausone of course changed gear around 2000 after the Vauthiers took control of the winemaking) it was not a decade that produced very much worth talking about. It was a good decade for Figeac who did and they made excellent wines in the 1990, 1995, 1998, although post 2000, the only wine I thought the equal of Ausone was the 2009 (Figeac made an extraordinary wine that year) in fact, I think it is superior.

I love Cheval, and lately it has been producing some amazing wines. Each and every one (with the possible exception of the 2009) are better than Figeac.

[Gerhard_P]

@Mark Golodetz

Gerhard,
That begs a slightly different question, which GC class are you asking about? if you are comparing them to Pavie, I would say all of them, and generally they are at least as good as Angelus. We did a vertical at the chateau three or four years ago, and were extremely impressed by some of the wines, although they perhaps lacked consistency.

To answer your real question which compares Figeac to Ausone and Cheval, that is more interesting. Going back to 1990 (Ausone of course changed gear around 2000 after the Vauthiers took control of the winemaking) it was not a decade that produced very much worth talking about. It was a good decade for Figeac who did and they made excellent wines in the 1990, 1995, 1998, although post 2000, the only wine I thought the equal of Ausone was the 2009 (Figeac made an extraordinary wine that year) in fact, I think it is superior.

I love Cheval, and lately it has been producing some amazing wines. Each and every one (with the possible exception of the 2009) are better than Figeac.

Mark,

apart from Pavie - we could discuss hours and not come to any conclusion how good or bad it is since 1998/99:
I have much more disapointments with Figeac than positive experiences!

My 1st disapointment was the 1988 Figeac - the 1st vintage I ever bought en Primeur - and all bottles have been - well “weak” over 2 decades.
The 1994 is simply “green”, 1995 is very good but not great, 1996 disapointing, 1998 may be the best after 1990, 1999 nice but soft, 2000 + 2003 good but not outstanding, only the 2005 was impressive and could develop into something really outstanding.
The 1989 F. was last in a St.Emilion-tasting when comparing with Angelus, Dominique, Magdelaine, Canon la Gaffeliere, Tertre-Roteboeuf, Troplong-Mondot and another one (can´t remember) …
However I loved the 1964, 1982 and 1990 Figeac, but otherwise … ???

For me the question was for a long time if it is worth a 1er Cru classification at all, not even thinking of an “A” … but it was in good company with Trottevielle, Gaffeliere, Canon … which were even more disapointing most of the times.

[Carl_Steefel]

I cannot comment on Angelus over the years, but the 1990 Angelus was one of the greatest wines I have ever had, period.

I have had a few Cheval, but not from the great years, so take with a grain of salt, but the 1990 Angelus was better than those.

[Alain_M]

Didn’t see any comment on poll but…

If it was 2 years ago, then Angélus also has been promoted to 1er GCC A.

Alain