Serious question - aging of syrahs from around the world

[Gordon_Fitz]

Recently had the 97 Truchard syrah. It was drinking extremely well with many years left. Did need the strainer though, lots of that chunky syrah stuff into the decanter.

[larry_schaffer]

Just a quick comment about Tom’s comment about vineyard sites . .

All things considered equal, site can trump almost anything else - and a series of spectacular wines will emerge fromthe same sight by different winemakers . . .

I think that there are a number of potential ‘grand cru’ syrah vineyards that can produce syrahs that have ageability. Here’s my partial list from Santa Barbara County, but I’m SURE Tom will pipe in:

Santa Barbara County
Thompson
Larner
Purisima Mtn
Ampelos (?)
Melville
White Hawk (?)
Roll Ranch (though not sure anyone besides Ojai gets from there)
Specific blocks at Bien Nacido

Cheers!

[Jeb_Dunnuck]

@TomHill

Jeb,
I’ve had 20-25 yr old CC Syrahs. Had Bob’s first '82 Syrah, Eastside Paso grapes, with him at HdR about 2003. It was magnificant.
Not in a C-R character, but rather pungent/smokey/coffee character…a bit NorthernRhonish perhaps, but distinctly Calif. Even a bit of
fruit clinging in there. It could probably go another 5 yrs, but that would be pushing it. In that same time frame (17-20 yrs), I had the other two '82
Syrahs from those same grapes. The Ojai was pretty much shot. Too much time in new oak and pretty much dried out. It was the first of
that threesome to die. The BonnyDoon was a bit better, but not by much. Less oak and a bit a fruit still there, but very shakey and drying out. Like many
old wines, interesting nose but not much on the palate.
Interestingly, of those first truly great Calif Syrahs from '82, the one that went the distance was JohnMacCready’s SierraVista/ElDorado Syrah '82, his
first vintage. Very smokey, very Rhonish, very roasted/coffee/espresso, that ElDorado earthiness…and a genuine pleasure to drink. Wouldn’t have wanted to
hold onto it much longer as it would turn into one of those “intellectual experiences”.
I had the first Eberle '77 Syrah at about 12-13 yrs of age in the early '90’s. Another “interesting intellectual experience”, but pretty much on its last legs.
The first Phelps '74 Syrah was pretty much dead & gone before it reached its 10’th BD. WalterShug used way too much new Fr.oak on it. Grapes wern’t
all that good in the first place.
Had the Qupe HillsideEstate '95 (en magnum), his 2’nd one, Tues night. Absolutely magnificant now, classic Lindquist Syrah.
. But I see no reason it won’t go out another 10 yrs.

To address the more general question: If there are any Calif Syrahs out there that I would think will go out 20-30 yrs, it would be the ones that are
based/made w/ restraint and the emphasis on balance. That would easily be, then, the Qupe and EdmundsStJohn. Although they are very/very atypical
of any Calif Syrah, you gotta believe Draper knows a thing or two about making wine for the long haul and the Ridge LyttonSpr Syrahs will probably
go out that far. And I would (or am) put my money on the Failla Estate Syrah. Probably the Lagier-Meredith.
But the really big ones that Parker likes; the SQN, the Lewis, the Konsgaard, Saxum, the recent Jaffurs… it’s a big risk, I think.

That’s it, Ken…used up all my wisdom for today!!!

Tom

Awesome. Thank you Tom and great insight.

[John_Cabot]

Richard Smart contends that the first vineyards in any given region(grape variety) that ripen first are the best, most age worthy wines. This could be due to the reduction of acids and tannins with longer hang time, yet many winemakers view longer hang time as a possitive???

[Rick_Gregory]

John,

Not sure I see that one (that early ripening sites lead to ageworthiness necessarily). However vintage profile does of course affect things.

On high alcohol - I do tend to think that these won’t age as well since they tend to be out of balance and since alcohol doesn’t transform into something else - a 16% wine will always be a 16% wine. Much of what you get with actual aging (vs a wine that just lasts but doesn’t evolve much) are subtleties of flavor and aroma that transform the fruit flavors into other, more nuanced flavors. I’d worry that high alcohol would hurt the perception of those.

Also, to me, it’s balance and complexity - not restraint necessarily. But simple, straightforward wines that seem linear when young usually don’t become interesting.

[Gordon_Fitz]

Had a 2005 Qupe Syrah tonight, too PWI to print the double vineyard name now. It was a beautiful wine that, imo, will last easily for another 10 years, and truthfully should get another 3-5 before having again.

[Steve_Lagier]

@Rick Gregory

and since alcohol doesn’t transform into something else - a 16% wine will always be a 16% wine.

Rick, a couple of years ago there was a discussion on eBob about changes in ethanol and TA. I pointed out that over time tartaric acid and ethanol form an ester reducing both tartaric and ethanol concentrations in the wine (see AJEV 36, 118-24 (1985)). This reaction decreases %EtOH only a little (I’m thinking tenths of a percent). So a little ethanol does transform into something else and a 16% wine will have lower ethanol over time. I don’t know if these changes are detectable by tasting but they do occur.

[John_Cabot]

@Steve Lagier

@Rick Gregory

and since alcohol doesn’t transform into something else - a 16% wine will always be a 16% wine.

Rick, a couple of years ago there was a discussion on eBob about changes in ethanol and TA. I pointed out that over time tartaric acid and ethanol form an ester reducing both tartaric and ethanol concentrations in the wine (see AJEV 36, 118-24 (1985)). This reaction decreases %EtOH only a little (I’m thinking tenths of a percent). So a little ethanol does transform into something else and a 16% wine will have lower ethanol over time. I don’t know if these changes are detectable by tasting but they do occur.

Hey, glad to see you on the board Steve.

[Rick_Gregory]

@Steve Lagier

@Rick Gregory

and since alcohol doesn’t transform into something else - a 16% wine will always be a 16% wine.

Rick, a couple of years ago there was a discussion on eBob about changes in ethanol and TA. I pointed out that over time tartaric acid and ethanol form an ester reducing both tartaric and ethanol concentrations in the wine (see AJEV 36, 118-24 (1985)). This reaction decreases %EtOH only a little (I’m thinking tenths of a percent). So a little ethanol does transform into something else and a 16% wine will have lower ethanol over time. I don’t know if these changes are detectable by tasting but they do occur.

Fascinating. I had no idea, thanks. Any idea what the ‘else’ that the ethanol transforms into is?

[Steve_Lagier]

@Rick Gregory

Any idea what the ‘else’ that the ethanol transforms into is?

According to the AJEV article Ethyl acid tartrate is formed. The abstract and text of the article are available at the ASEV website. I agree with you that young wines that taste hot and alcoholic probably won’t change with aging. I do think that some of the “mellowing” in astringency that comes with aging a red wine is from the TA reduction associated with this esterification reaction.

[Cris_Whetstone]

Great info Steve. I’ve been trying to tell some local friends who seem to think they can wait for the alcohol to integrate that they are going to be disappointed.

Thanks for coming aboard and was good to bump into you in Napa.

[Rick_Gregory]

There is a general belief out there that age will do away with things that people find objectionable in young wines (high tannins, etc) but in my experience this isn’t true of some things (alcohol…) and while it can be true of other things (oak for example), if you don’t like the basic composition of the wine young you’re unlikely to like it aged.

Thanks again Steve.

[J_Benjamin]

tenths of a percent really doesn’t mean much, it is relatively stable as compared to the other components, right?

[larry_schaffer]

@Steve Lagier

@Rick Gregory

Any idea what the ‘else’ that the ethanol transforms into is?

According to the AJEV article Ethyl acid tartrate is formed. The abstract and text of the article are available at the ASEV website. I agree with you that young wines that taste hot and alcoholic probably won’t change with aging. I do think that some of the “mellowing” in astringency that comes with aging a red wine is from the TA reduction associated with this esterification reaction.

Interesting . . .

This may play some part in the process, but I’m still a firm believer in tannin polymerization and, more importantly, the formation of polymeric pigments being the main reason for astringency ‘mellowing’ over time . . .

Cheers!

[TomHill]

@John Cabot

Richard Smart contends that the first vineyards in any given region(grape variety) that ripen first are the best, most age worthy wines. This could be due to the reduction of acids and tannins with longer hang time, yet many winemakers view longer hang time as a possitive???

This makes little sense, John. That would say that for NorthernCalif, that Lodi makes better Syrah than HumboltCnty?? Or is NorthernCalif
too big too be a “given region”?? Maybe this is true in very cold-climes where it’s difficult to ripen the grapes and the later
ones never reach maturity, but seems counterintutive (as RandallGrahm would say) in most general cases.
Tom

[John_Cabot]

@TomHill

@John Cabot

Richard Smart contends that the first vineyards in any given region(grape variety) that ripen first are the best, most age worthy wines. This could be due to the reduction of acids and tannins with longer hang time, yet many winemakers view longer hang time as a possitive???

This makes little sense, John. That would say that for NorthernCalif, that Lodi makes better Syrah than HumboltCnty?? Or is NorthernCalif
too big too be a “given region”?? Maybe this is true in very cold-climes where it’s difficult to ripen the grapes and the later
ones never reach maturity, but seems counterintutive (as RandallGrahm would say) in most general cases.
Tom

I think he was saying something to the effect that, within the Santa Rita Hills(insert any quality wine growing region) the first vineyard/s to ripen often make the best wines. I’m just quoting what I’ve read from his many years of extensive research. It is possible he was reffering to cool climate growing regions, but given that much of his research has been done in Australia, I’m not so sure.

[TomHill]

@larry schaffer

Just a quick comment about Tom’s comment about vineyard sites . .

All things considered equal, site can trump almost anything else - and a series of spectacular wines will emerge fromthe same sight by different winemakers . . .

Won’t argue that point at all, Larry. What I was trying to say is that a great site doesn’t necessarily translate into a great Syrah. The HudsonVnyd in this case.

I think that there are a number of potential ‘grand cru’ syrah vineyards that can produce syrahs that have ageability. Here’s my partial list from Santa Barbara County, but I’m SURE Tom will pipe in:
Santa Barbara County

Thompson
Larner
Purisima Mtn
Ampelos (?)
Melville
White Hawk (?)
Roll Ranch (though not sure anyone besides Ojai gets from there)
Specific blocks at Bien Nacido
Cheers!

Awwww, Larry…if I want a list of wine things…I’d read the WineSpectator!!!
Of this list, I’d include just Thompson and BienNacido. At least based on their track record.
The rest I would characterize as “vying” for greatness.
Except for RollRanch (Ojai takes all of it), which I think is a bit on the warm side for great Syrah, I’d include probably
Stolpman as well. Too early on 11Confessions. Maybe the Presidio?? Verna’s…don’t know. Maybe the old AndrewMurray vnyd
(forget the present name).
Which specific blocks of BienNacido would you include?? Certainly the original X-Block. Certainly the Z-Block…Bob’s original
Hillside planting. Probably too early to judge on the 11-Block and 17-Block. And then there a few other scattered small plantings.

[larry_schaffer]

Tom,

One comment about your comments - I don’t want to rule out any vineyard on principal because it is ‘warmer’ - this certainly does not mean that great long lasting syrahs cannot be produced from there.

I will agree that others along Ballard Canyon certainly stand a chance of being great vineyards - including Purissima, Stolpman, and Larner (with Larner probably being the coolest AND it’s planted on 100% sand) . . .

11 Confessions? Difficult to tell with only SQN getting fruit from there and their wines being so ‘singular’ in style . . .

Not sure about Presidio and with Melville, I was referring to their Sta Rita Hills vyd, but Verna’s is certainly great as well - and right across the street from another suggestion of mine, White Hawk . . .

Cheers!