Seeking graphite

[Kent_Comley]

Yes certainly some Bordeaux have it, also wines from Priorat.

[Keith_Levenberg]

See, what happened is that the expression used to be “lead pencils,” and then the pedants would chime in to point out they don’t use lead in pencils anymore, it’s graphite. So we dutifully switched over to “graphite” to make them happy, but were they satisfied? Nooooo…

I agree the aroma is distinct from all other forms of cedar. For terminology, we can go with “pencils” or “pencil shavings” - let them try to find fault with that.

Lynch-Bages is probably the most pencil-packed Pauillac in my book.

[John_Morris]

I never meant for this to get so technical, but I’m glad it did. Always happy to learn new things.

You remember when you were a kid and used to sharpen pencils in class (if you’re over 40!)? That smell is quite different from the cedar in a humidor. The latter to me is much sweeter smelling, so “something” in the construction of a pencil gives off a distinctly different aroma. It is that aroma that I’ve picked up on in BDX that I really enjoy.

Anyway, it doesn’t seem like there is an answer as the descriptor may be too fleeting in wine to be a signature.

The cedar in humidors I think is most often Spanish cedar. In pencils these days, I think it’s most often California incense cedar (I could be wrong about this, but that’s what I found on line). These have different smells.

Gasp, John…are you suggesting that cedar shows terroir???
Tom

No, he’s saying you have to pay attention to cedar varietals [sic].

[John_Morris]

Appreciate the recs and humor. Thank you!

Recommendations? Did some slip in here? That would mean I had failed to completely hijack this thread.

[jordan_whitehead]

Pauillac

[John_Morris]

I’m not saying this to argue with those pointing out that graphite is odorless – it’s a reasonable point and it’s well taken.

But speaking for myself, tasting notes are about communicating tastes, smells and other impressions from the writer to the reader, and if you succeed in doing that, then it doesn’t actually matter how literally correct the words you use are.

This thread is a good example. We all knew what you meant in the wine context, including those who objected to the use of the term. And so, that’s really a success in my view.

I saw a TN where someone referenced a purple Sharpie. I’m guessing that purple Sharpie doesn’t actually smell different than green or orange, but still, the expression successfully conveyed the impression of a certain odor.

So I say, if it works, then it works. If it actually creates a misunderstanding or confusion, then maybe it didn’t work, but that really isn’t the case when someone says pencil lead or graphite.

By analogy, if someone refers to “Kodak green,” initially that would draw puzzled looks. Then it turns out they were confused and were thinking about another film brand, Fuji.

After a while lots of people refer to “Kodak green” when they mean “Fuji green,” and we get used to it and know what they’re driving at.

But it’s still a mistake!

[John_Morris]

I agree the aroma is distinct from all other forms of cedar. For terminology, we can go with “pencils” or “pencil shavings” - let them try to find fault with that.

For the record, I’m good with pencils as a descriptor.

[T_Turney]

Maybach

[Chris_Seiber]

I’m not saying this to argue with those pointing out that graphite is odorless – it’s a reasonable point and it’s well taken.

But speaking for myself, tasting notes are about communicating tastes, smells and other impressions from the writer to the reader, and if you succeed in doing that, then it doesn’t actually matter how literally correct the words you use are.

This thread is a good example. We all knew what you meant in the wine context, including those who objected to the use of the term. And so, that’s really a success in my view.

I saw a TN where someone referenced a purple Sharpie. I’m guessing that purple Sharpie doesn’t actually smell different than green or orange, but still, the expression successfully conveyed the impression of a certain odor.

So I say, if it works, then it works. If it actually creates a misunderstanding or confusion, then maybe it didn’t work, but that really isn’t the case when someone says pencil lead or graphite.

By analogy, if someone refers to “Kodak green,” initially that would draw puzzled looks. Then it turns out they were confused and were thinking about another film brand, Fuji.

After a while lots of people refer to “Kodak green” when they mean “Fuji green,” and we get used to it and know what they’re driving at.

But it’s still a mistake!

But you’re referring to a use of terms that nobody understands (or at least I certainly don’t understand them and have never heard them used in any context). When someone says pencil lead or graphite, almost all of us know what is meant by that.

I figure in talking about wine aromas, textures and flavors, if you use words where your audience always or usually knows what you’re talking about, then they’re okay, whether or not they’re literally correct.

Conversely, if you use terms that are technically correct but nobody knows what you mean, then that’s probably a failure. “The aroma is like the fur on the front legs of the ruffed lemur mixed with the petals of the rafflesia flower.” Maybe that’s actually true, but since nobody will have any idea what those smells are, then what is the point of saying it?

I guess my point always comes back to this: TNs and the discussion of wine is an act of communicating ideas and sensations using words. What matters is being successful in communicating, not the literal exactness of the words you use and the comparisons you make.

Having said all of that, your point has merit and is definitely worth including in a discussion like this.

[David_Wright]

See, what happened is that the expression used to be “lead pencils,” and then the pedants would chime in to point out they don’t use lead in pencils anymore, it’s graphite.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but pencils were never made with lead… it was graphite from the get-go:

Ever wondered about the lead in pencils?

[Steve_McL]

For a while now, I’ve thought “graphite” meant a reductive state in the glass and have used “pencil lead/graphite/flint” interchangeably and apparently, incorrectly.

According to Pinotfile (and some guy named Alan that no one’s ever heard of), reduced means the presence of sulfur compounds that small/taste mostly bad (sulfur, rotten eggs, burnt rubber) but sometimes ok (struck match/flinty-I like it) if not overdone. (Making Sense of Reduction | The PinotFile: Volume 8, Issue 45 )

[John_Morris]

I’m not saying this to argue with those pointing out that graphite is odorless – it’s a reasonable point and it’s well taken.

But speaking for myself, tasting notes are about communicating tastes, smells and other impressions from the writer to the reader, and if you succeed in doing that, then it doesn’t actually matter how literally correct the words you use are.

This thread is a good example. We all knew what you meant in the wine context, including those who objected to the use of the term. And so, that’s really a success in my view.

I saw a TN where someone referenced a purple Sharpie. I’m guessing that purple Sharpie doesn’t actually smell different than green or orange, but still, the expression successfully conveyed the impression of a certain odor.

So I say, if it works, then it works. If it actually creates a misunderstanding or confusion, then maybe it didn’t work, but that really isn’t the case when someone says pencil lead or graphite.

By analogy, if someone refers to “Kodak green,” initially that would draw puzzled looks. Then it turns out they were confused and were thinking about another film brand, Fuji.

After a while lots of people refer to “Kodak green” when they mean “Fuji green,” and we get used to it and know what they’re driving at.

But it’s still a mistake!

But you’re referring to a use of terms that nobody understands (or at least I certainly don’t understand them and have never heard them used in any context). When someone says pencil lead or graphite, almost all of us know what is meant by that. …

Perhaps now, after years of sloppy usage. But I don’t think 10 or 15 years ago, before “graphite” became a common wine descriptor for some critics, no one would have had a clue what they were talking about. It was only the slow transition from “pencil shavings” or “lead pencil” to “graphite” that made it comprehensible.

[DougS]

examples;
https://www.vinography.com/2013/05/the_essence_of_wine_graphite

“Graphite” is certainly commonly used, but that doesn’t mean that the user has ever smelled graphite itself. I think in 99.5% of the cases, what they mean is cedar. Note that, in the article you cite, they attribute this scent to oak, which suggests they confuse it with wood generally.)

FYI, a friend and I did aroma experiments with graphite, which I posted here:
Graphite and salinity: Lab tests (screen grab below)

In the process, I learned that there may be a bit of wax smell in some pencil lead, because the graphite is mixed with wax so it spreads on and adheres to paper. But I don’t think that’s what anyone is referring to, because the wax scent is very faint.

This has had me curious for a while. I just remembered that I have some mechanical pencil refills (bars of what I think is graphite, but I’m not sure) that I don’t use. I took them out of their container, and they do have a distinct smell that I really think is not just wax. They smell, well, like what I think of as graphite in wine. Of course, there’s plenty of room for bias here, but I am confident that what I’m smelling is not faint and is not just wax. I have no idea why this differs from your experience, but I think it’s fair to say smelling 2 samples and not finding an aroma does not absolutely prove that it never exists. The best way I can describe this is as a smoky mineral smell. I’ve been told what we smell on various metals tends to be the oils from our skin interacting with those metals, and that the metals themselves, untouched, do not smell like anything. Maybe there’s something similar at work here. I don’t know, but I am definitely not convinced that graphite as a descriptor for an aroma isn’t reasonable.

[Paul_abbott]

I have found that scent in Belgrave from cooler vintages.

[T_Altmayer]

Cos d’Estournel usually has a pencil lead note to me.

[John_Morris]

examples;
https://www.vinography.com/2013/05/the_essence_of_wine_graphite

“Graphite” is certainly commonly used, but that doesn’t mean that the user has ever smelled graphite itself. I think in 99.5% of the cases, what they mean is cedar. Note that, in the article you cite, they attribute this scent to oak, which suggests they confuse it with wood generally.)

FYI, a friend and I did aroma experiments with graphite, which I posted here:
Graphite and salinity: Lab tests (screen grab below)

In the process, I learned that there may be a bit of wax smell in some pencil lead, because the graphite is mixed with wax so it spreads on and adheres to paper. But I don’t think that’s what anyone is referring to, because the wax scent is very faint.

This has had me curious for a while. I just remembered that I have some mechanical pencil refills (bars of what I think is graphite, but I’m not sure) that I don’t use. I took them out of their container, and they do have a distinct smell that I really think is not just wax. They smell, well, like what I think of as graphite in wine. Of course, there’s plenty of room for bias here, but I am confident that what I’m smelling is not faint and is not just wax. I have no idea why this differs from your experience, but I think it’s fair to say smelling 2 samples and not finding an aroma does not absolutely prove that it never exists. The best way I can describe this is as a smoky mineral smell. I’ve been told what we smell on various metals tends to be the oils from our skin interacting with those metals, and that the metals themselves, untouched, do not smell like anything. Maybe there’s something similar at work here. I don’t know, but I am definitely not convinced that graphite as a descriptor for an aroma isn’t reasonable.

Without knowing how your pencil leads were stored, it’s hard to know where the smell came from.

The assertion that graphite is odorless was not must based on our experiments. It’s a matter of chemistry: “In its pure form, it is odorless, tasteless and nontoxic.” –

About Graphite - Graphite Products

[ChrisJames]

Yup…when I was in grade school in the 5’th grade, one of my tasks assigned by ole Lady Rickey was to empty the pencil sharpener
every day. I did it on the alternate days of Susan Davis, for whom I had the hots. So I developed a deep fondness for that smell.
And it is a different smell from that of cedar roof shingles and cedar of a cigar box humidor. Don’t know if it’s because of the graphite
in there or not.
If anybody knows Susan Davis who grew up in Kansas City, let her know I still have the hots for her.
Tom

Tom, I’m sure the feeling was mutual. Missed opportunity.

[RichardFlack]

I never meant for this to get so technical, but I’m glad it did. Always happy to learn new things.

You remember when you were a kid and used to sharpen pencils in class (if you’re over 40!)? That smell is quite different from the cedar in a humidor. The latter to me is much sweeter smelling, so “something” in the construction of a pencil gives off a distinctly different aroma. It is that aroma that I’ve picked up on in BDX that I really enjoy.

Anyway, it doesn’t seem like there is an answer as the descriptor may be too fleeting in wine to be a signature.

American cedar vs French cedar?

Oops.

[Wes_Barton]

I’m not saying this to argue with those pointing out that graphite is odorless – it’s a reasonable point and it’s well taken.

But speaking for myself, tasting notes are about communicating tastes, smells and other impressions from the writer to the reader, and if you succeed in doing that, then it doesn’t actually matter how literally correct the words you use are.

This thread is a good example. We all knew what you meant in the wine context, including those who objected to the use of the term. And so, that’s really a success in my view.

I saw a TN where someone referenced a purple Sharpie. I’m guessing that purple Sharpie doesn’t actually smell different than green or orange, but still, the expression successfully conveyed the impression of a certain odor.

So I say, if it works, then it works. If it actually creates a misunderstanding or confusion, then maybe it didn’t work, but that really isn’t the case when someone says pencil lead or graphite.

By analogy, if someone refers to “Kodak green,” initially that would draw puzzled looks. Then it turns out they were confused and were thinking about another film brand, Fuji.

After a while lots of people refer to “Kodak green” when they mean “Fuji green,” and we get used to it and know what they’re driving at.

But it’s still a mistake!

Then there’s the expression “Drink the Kool-Aid” when it was actually Flavor Aid.

[DougS]

“Graphite” is certainly commonly used, but that doesn’t mean that the user has ever smelled graphite itself. I think in 99.5% of the cases, what they mean is cedar. Note that, in the article you cite, they attribute this scent to oak, which suggests they confuse it with wood generally.)

FYI, a friend and I did aroma experiments with graphite, which I posted here:
Graphite and salinity: Lab tests (screen grab below)

In the process, I learned that there may be a bit of wax smell in some pencil lead, because the graphite is mixed with wax so it spreads on and adheres to paper. But I don’t think that’s what anyone is referring to, because the wax scent is very faint.

This has had me curious for a while. I just remembered that I have some mechanical pencil refills (bars of what I think is graphite, but I’m not sure) that I don’t use. I took them out of their container, and they do have a distinct smell that I really think is not just wax. They smell, well, like what I think of as graphite in wine. Of course, there’s plenty of room for bias here, but I am confident that what I’m smelling is not faint and is not just wax. I have no idea why this differs from your experience, but I think it’s fair to say smelling 2 samples and not finding an aroma does not absolutely prove that it never exists. The best way I can describe this is as a smoky mineral smell. I’ve been told what we smell on various metals tends to be the oils from our skin interacting with those metals, and that the metals themselves, untouched, do not smell like anything. Maybe there’s something similar at work here. I don’t know, but I am definitely not convinced that graphite as a descriptor for an aroma isn’t reasonable.

Without knowing how your pencil leads were stored, it’s hard to know where the smell came from.

The assertion that graphite is odorless was not must based on our experiments. It’s a matter of chemistry: “In its pure form, it is odorless, tasteless and nontoxic.” –
About Graphite - Graphite Products

I wonder if it’s skin oils interacting with it or some additive. They’ve been in the sealed container they came in for years. Whatever that smell is, it is definitely what I think of when I hear the descriptor. There’s a smell most people associate with certain metals even though they have no odor on their own.