Screwcap vs. DIAM

[larry_schaffer]

To the extent someone holds this viewpoint, wouldn’t they hold it equally w/r/t both Diam and screwcaps? Larry is saying he has seen folks hold this viewpoint with Diam, but not with screwcaps — like him, to the extent that has happened (I haven’t seen it), that simply doesn’t make sense.

Brian,

I get what you are saying, but have you not seen folks on this board and elsewhere lament the fact that wines under screw cap develop ‘too slowly’? If you are saying that you have not seen that at all or heard that from others I’d understand, but I’m sure a few folks on this thread will back me up with the fact that this has been stated a lot more than once . . . but to my knowledge, I’ve NEVER heard this as a negative towards DIAM. Not sure if that is clearer, and let me know if I am misreading or mis-stating something.

Cheers.

Well, now you’re saying the opposite of what you said in your post that I quoted. In your post that I quoted you said you’ve seen people regard slow aging under DIAM as a positive.

Brian.

I see where the confusion is - I left out a word - now bolded - above, that makes things consistent.

My point - I’ve seen folks point out that wines under DIAM are ‘bright and fresh’, especially when referring to wines such as white burgs, which probably would have shown more development under natural cork.

Cheers.

[larry_schaffer]

Rodrigo,

Great question - if you open a screw cap and the liner looks like tin, it is a tin-based liner allowing just a small amount of air to get in (almost all of my whites and my roses have this liner). If you open up one of my reds, you’ll see the liner is more white - this is a polymer based saranex liner.

Cheers

Thanks for the information Larry

Just so that I can understand the permeability of various screw cap types better, are the permeabilities of tin and saranex based liners similar to other closures? For example is the tin liner similar in OTR to a particular DIAM 10 or 30? Is the saranex closer to a natural cork or other closure?

Do tin and saranex liners always have the same OTRs or can those change in specs based on a winemaker’s requests? If so, is there any way as a consumer to identify the different permeabilities within the same type of material a la DIAM?

That’s something I’d love to see more in screwcap closures. In DIAM, consumers can more readily understand how a wine may develop over the years based on the closure used (whether it’s sealed under DIAM 5, 10, 30, etc), but there seems to be less of that in screwcaps regrettably.

Rodrigo,

Great question - and not one that I can answer. I am not sure of the exact ‘specs’ of the different liners used for screw caps re: comparison to other closures. The landmark AWRI study showed that tin based screwcaps had very low permeability rates, which they compared to the lower end of natural corks (the big difference being the HUGE variability in rates for the same quality of natural corks vs. a much much smaller variability range for screw caps).

I also am not sure of how DIAM came up with their different liners and their projected age ability. I know that permeability rates decrease as you go up from their 5 to their 30, and my guess is that they did accelerated studies to determine age ability since theses have not been in use for 30 years. But I’m also sure that these are ‘guidelines’ and I’ve seen wineries bottle all of their reds in 5’s and 10’s even though they feel their wines can age longer.

There is so much that we still do not know about all of these closures, but as I’ve repeated elsewhere, DIAM’s seem to get a ‘pass’ compared to screw caps because they have the same ‘look and feel’ that folks are used to.

And for those that think I am a broken record, here is an article that just came out on VinePair a week ago:

Ask a Somm: Can You Age Screw Cap Wine?

There continues to be this feeling that wines meant for long term aging should not be put under screw cap - therefore, the consumer reads this and feels that it is ‘fact’ . . .

Cheers

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Brian,

I get what you are saying, but have you not seen folks on this board and elsewhere lament the fact that wines under screw cap develop ‘too slowly’? If you are saying that you have not seen that at all or heard that from others I’d understand, but I’m sure a few folks on this thread will back me up with the fact that this has been stated a lot more than once . . . but to my knowledge, I’ve NEVER heard this as a negative towards DIAM. Not sure if that is clearer, and let me know if I am misreading or mis-stating something.

Cheers.

Well, now you’re saying the opposite of what you said in your post that I quoted. In your post that I quoted you said you’ve seen people regard slow aging under DIAM as a positive.

Brian.

I see where the confusion is - I left out a word - now bolded - above, that makes things consistent.

My point - I’ve seen folks point out that wines under DIAM are ‘bright and fresh’, especially when referring to wines such as white burgs, which probably would have shown more development under natural cork.

Cheers.

Thanks for clearing-up that confusion, Larry. Now that you mention white Burgs specifically — yes, I have seen that, too. I believe we’ve seen that in relation to white Burgundies because of premox; folks are expressing pleasure that the wines aren’t premoxed. I think folks would rather have a closure that allows a wine to develop arguably too slowly than one that allows the wine to develop far too quickly. I would assume you’d see similar positive comments about “bright and fresh” white Burgs under screwcap, if white Burgs actually were bottled under screwcap. Have you seen folks complaining about white Burgs developing too slowly under screwcap? … I really think the white Burg premox nightmare is heavily influencing this very specific example.

Outside of folks praising DIAM-sealed white Burgs as “bright and fresh,” have you seen this sort of praise bestowed upon other DIAM-sealed wines?

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Rodrigo,
…
I also am not sure of how DIAM came up with their different liners and their projected age ability. I know that permeability rates decrease as you go up from their 5 to their 30, and my guess is that they did accelerated studies to determine age ability since theses have not been in use for 30 years. But I’m also sure that these are ‘guidelines’ and I’ve seen wineries bottle all of their reds in 5’s and 10’s even though they feel their wines can age longer.

There is so much that we still do not know about all of these closures, but as I’ve repeated elsewhere, DIAM’s seem to get a ‘pass’ compared to screw caps because they have the same ‘look and feel’ that folks are used to.

And for those that think I am a broken record, here is an article that just came out on VinePair a week ago:

Ask a Somm: Can You Age Screw Cap Wine? | VinePair

There continues to be this feeling that wines meant for long term aging should not be put under screw cap - therefore, the consumer reads this and feels that it is ‘fact’ . . .

Cheers

The part of your post I put in bold, Larry, is exactly correct, and is exactly why some folks are not yet full believers. There is a difference between being a skeptic and a disbeliever. A skeptic is simply not yet convinced – has not yet made up their mind --, and is seeking additional information before they do make up their mind. A disbeliever has made up their mind, and affirmatively does not believe. I see a lot of folks here conflating those two — they’re simply not the same.

Hell, we don’t even completely understand (all) the specific manner(s) in which natural corks affect a wine’s aging process, although we do have centuries of experience of how wines age under cork. So, although we don’t exactly understand the process, we do understand the result. And, who knows, this may be where we ultimately land with DIAM and screwcaps, too. There simply is no substitute for TIME in this matter. We may never completely understand (all) the specific manner(s) in which DIAMS or screwcaps affect a wine’s aging process, but — given trials/experiments/actual use — we will eventually understand the result of aging wines under DIAM and screwcaps. We’re just not there yet.

And I do think the “romance” idea comes into play with some folks preferring DIAM over screwcap, as a DIAM looks like natural cork, and is removed from the bottle in the same manner. Screwcaps are still fighting against a widespread erroneous belief that only cheap wines are bottled under screwcap; I’m sure the fact that fine wine is still viewed by many as a highfalutin hobby only serves to perpetuate this belief – or, at least, serves to retard the process of teaching people this screwcaps = cheap idea is not necessarily true. And you know what? I will admit that I enjoy the process of opening a cork-sealed wine much more than I do a screwcapped wine. If corks and screwcaps affected wines the exact same, I would prefer corks most of the time (only time I wouldn’t is when I would be somewhere with the bottle and wouldn’t have access to a corkscrew). Although I usually just pull the entire capsule off, I will admit there is something satisfying to getting a nice clean cut on the foil. There is something satisfying about successfully removing an old cork — I mean, look at all the cork-removal gadgets many of us discuss and use. The twisting-off of a screwcap takes all that fun away. Now, to be clear, does this affect my buying decision at all? NO!! Because, at the end of the day, what really matters (to me) is the wine. But, yeah, the cork-removal process is fun. And that’s just the way it is for many folks — I don’t think that’s unreasonable. YMMV.

[Chris_Seiber]

I had one at Tercero Grenache Blanc at maybe 10 years of age, and it had evolved a great deal (darker color, truffles and petrol on the nose, fruit receded, more complexity), but it was still quite good.

Granted, that is not a wine designed for decades of age, but it convinced me that the “screw caps just preserve wine in its youthful state and don’t let them mature and evolve” view was incorrect.

I’m also pretty certain that same 10 year old grenache blanc would have been something to pour down the drain if it had been finished with cork.

[larry_schaffer]

Brian,

Great question - and I will have to rack my brain a bit for specifics on this.

Cheers.

[Oliver_McCrum]

I think the idea that ‘wine under screw-caps don’t age’ came from the early days of the closure, when there were fewer options of liner and less understanding of how to prepare the wine before bottling under the different closure. As I understand it the more ‘open’ screw-caps allow oxygen transmission that is equivalent to bark cork, but consistent.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

I had one at Tercero Grenache Blanc at maybe 10 years of age, and it had evolved a great deal (darker color, truffles and petrol on the nose, fruit receded, more complexity), but it was still quite good.

Granted, that is not a wine designed for decades of age, but it convinced me that the “screw caps just preserve wine in its youthful state and don’t let them mature and evolve” view was incorrect.

I’m also pretty certain that same 10 year old grenache blanc would have been something to pour down the drain if it had been finished with cork.

Genuine question, and not argumentative: how are you “pretty certain” of this?

I have 6 separate TNs on Larry’s 2006 Grenache Blanc, sealed under screwcap. I loved that wine. I had it at 4 years old, up to 12 years old. It definitely developed. At age 12, I thought it was delicious, but likely coming down from its peak.

When people say “screw caps just preserve wine in its youthful state and don’t let them mature and evolve” I don’t think they really mean “no maturation/evolution at all.” Rather, they mean “mature and evolve too slowly.” FWIW, I don’t think that Grenache Blanc matured too slowly — it was nice to be able to enjoy that wine through 2018. However, if that wine normally would have been a 6 year wine, and the screwcap doubled its lifespan (cut in half the rate at which the wine aged), we now see the potential downfall (for some people) of putting what would normally be a 20 or 30 or 40 year-to-peak wine under screwcap.

I’m still not drinking 2000 Bdx., for example. Although I’m selectively/occasionally drinking 2001 Spatlese and Auslese, I think many are not yet at peak, for example. I expect (hope) those wines will be getting to the point where I consider them “at peak” fairly soon (maybe another decade, or more, for the Auslese, though). If screwcaps doubles the length of time it would take those wines to reach peak, then we’re looking at a situation where wines I had to backfill in order to buy them might reach peak at some point in my lifetime where my tasting abilities have not yet fallen off a cliff — that’s not exactly an attractive situation to be in. The length of time it takes vin de garde wines to age under cork “works.” The jury is still out on the same w/r/t screwcaps and DIAM.

[larry_schaffer]

I had one at Tercero Grenache Blanc at maybe 10 years of age, and it had evolved a great deal (darker color, truffles and petrol on the nose, fruit receded, more complexity), but it was still quite good.

Granted, that is not a wine designed for decades of age, but it convinced me that the “screw caps just preserve wine in its youthful state and don’t let them mature and evolve” view was incorrect.

I’m also pretty certain that same 10 year old grenache blanc would have been something to pour down the drain if it had been finished with cork.

Chris,

Thanks for posting that - and I am pleasantly surprised that the wine held up as well as it did. Was it due to the use of screw caps? Was it my ‘magical’ winemaking techniques? Was it the make up and chemistry of the wine itself?

We’ll never know - but I’m glad it did - and I still have a few cases left of older Grenache Blancs for anyone that wants to see for themselves.

Cheers

[Oliver_McCrum]

Outside of folks praising DIAM-sealed white Burgs as “bright and fresh,” have you seen this sort of praise bestowed upon other DIAM-sealed wines?

Surely the hope is that we’ll get to the point where people are just enjoying the wine, without the closure getting in the way. Bark cork gets in the way a lot, in my view.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Outside of folks praising DIAM-sealed white Burgs as “bright and fresh,” have you seen this sort of praise bestowed upon other DIAM-sealed wines?

Surely the hope is that we’ll get to the point where people are just enjoying the wine, without the closure getting in the way. Bark cork gets in the way a lot, in my view.

I think people just want good wine.

[larry_schaffer]

Outside of folks praising DIAM-sealed white Burgs as “bright and fresh,” have you seen this sort of praise bestowed upon other DIAM-sealed wines?

Surely the hope is that we’ll get to the point where people are just enjoying the wine, without the closure getting in the way. Bark cork gets in the way a lot, in my view.

I think people just want good wine.

Define ‘good’ . . .

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Surely the hope is that we’ll get to the point where people are just enjoying the wine, without the closure getting in the way. Bark cork gets in the way a lot, in my view.

I think people just want good wine.

Define ‘good’ . . .

You must want this thread to hit double digit number of pages.

[larry_schaffer]

I think people just want good wine.

Define ‘good’ . . .

You must want this thread to hit double digit number of pages.

I’d love that with all threads that have ‘Screw Cap’ in the title . . .

[David_Bu3ker]

Brian,

I get what you are saying, but have you not seen folks on this board and elsewhere lament the fact that wines under screw cap develop ‘too slowly’? If you are saying that you have not seen that at all or heard that from others I’d understand, but I’m sure a few folks on this thread will back me up with the fact that this has been stated a lot more than once . . . but to my knowledge, I’ve NEVER heard this as a negative towards DIAM. Not sure if that is clearer, and let me know if I am misreading or mis-stating something.

Cheers.

Well, now you’re saying the opposite of what you said in your post that I quoted. In your post that I quoted you said you’ve seen people regard slow aging under DIAM as a positive.

Brian.

I see where the confusion is - I left out a word - now bolded - above, that makes things consistent.

My point - I’ve seen folks point out that wines under DIAM are ‘bright and fresh’, especially when referring to wines such as white burgs, which probably would have shown more development under natural cork.

Cheers.

Larry,

The bright and fresh under DIAM for White Burgs is a reaction to premox under regular cork. It’s not some endorsement of DIAM being super age worthy. It’s satisfaction that a frequently compromised type of wine is sound under normal circumstances.

[John_Morris]

Outside of folks praising DIAM-sealed white Burgs as “bright and fresh,” have you seen this sort of praise bestowed upon other DIAM-sealed wines?

I don’t know that there’s a loud chorus of DIAM cheers, but I’m always happy to slip a capsule off and find a DIAM there. Having had two corked mature wines in recent weeks (a '99 Guigal Cote Rotie - B&B and an '05 Charvin Chateauneuf), I’m all for synthetic closures. (My only complaint is that my trusty Leverpull doesn’t like that DIAM polymer.)

Maybe we should start the chorus!

[HoosJustinG]

Slower development is always seen as a benefit when someone is drinking a bottle 50-100+ years old. So if you are planning to stock a cellar for your unborn children’s children, of course you want the slowest development possible, so choose screwcap or Diam 30 and store them at 40 degrees. For those who want to drink their wine sooner, I think there’s a sweet spot with closure as well as storage condition to ensure the wine develops over the 15-30 year window when you want to enjoy them.

Do we really know this?

And if oxygen transfer is really what causes wine development (not by any means a unanimous view, and certainly not my view, having tasted a few aged wines under screwcap), screwcaps and DIAM can be adjusted to any amount of oxygen transfer, can’t they?

How bout the oxygen already inside the bottle? Is that essentially “fuel” and once it’s spent, it’s done interacting with the wine, or will it continue to interact with the wine forever given a hypothetical “no-transfer” closure?

[David_Bu3ker]

Outside of folks praising DIAM-sealed white Burgs as “bright and fresh,” have you seen this sort of praise bestowed upon other DIAM-sealed wines?

I don’t know that there’s a loud chorus of DIAM cheers, but I’m always happy to slip a capsule off and find a DIAM there. Having had two corked mature wines in recent weeks (a '99 Guigal Cote Rotie - B&B and an '05 Charvin Chateauneuf), I’m all for synthetic closures. (My only complaint is that my trusty Leverpull doesn’t like that DIAM polymer.)

Maybe we should start the chorus!

Why are you referring to DIAM as synthetic?

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Define ‘good’ . . .

You must want this thread to hit double digit number of pages.

I’d love that with all threads that have ‘Screw Cap’ in the title . . .

The industry really should be paying you.