Say bruschetta to me

[Bob_Wood]

@Chris Presutti

My wife is from south Jersey and every time we visit I get infuriated when I hear such atrocities as “gabba gool” and “manigott”.
[suicide.gif]

Where, Chris? My dad grew up in Vineland and I was born near there. Back then Vineland was loaded with Italians (his pals were Nannis and Buglios) and he ended up kinda thinking he was Italian, so he pronounced all the things we’ve been discussing just as they’ve been pointed out.

[Frank_Deis]

Gabbagool and Manigott aren’t “wrong” – they are Sicilian, at least that’s my understanding. Unvoiced consonants are voiced in the Sicilian dialect and final vowels are dropped. Cappicola => Gabagool, Manicotti => Manigott. Florentine Italian is more beautiful and is the national standard, but you can’t necessarily say that dialect pronunciations are bad, wrong, etc. Most of the Italians who arrived in New York and New Jersey around 100 years ago were Sicilians, that was the only Italian they knew, learned at their mother’s knee.

I’ve heard similar dialects in other languages. When my south German cousins said “the war was bad” “Krieg” sounded like “Greek”

[Chris_Presutti]

@Frank Deis

Gabbagool and Manigott aren’t “wrong” – they are Sicilian, at least that’s my understanding. Unvoiced consonants are voiced in the Sicilian dialect and final vowels are dropped. Cappicola => Gabagool, Manicotti => Manigott. Florentine Italian is more beautiful and is the national standard, but you can’t necessarily say that dialect pronunciations are bad, wrong, etc. Most of the Italians who arrived in New York and New Jersey around 100 years ago were Sicilians, that was the only Italian they knew, learned at their mother’s knee.

I’ve heard similar dialects in other languages. When my south German cousins said “the war was bad” “Krieg” sounded like “Greek”

It’s subjective. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one Frank and neither of us are likely wrong. Jersey “Italian” might sound sort of like Siciliani and may have been borne from Siciliani but it’s NOT Siciliani, IMO.

I’m quite aware of the dialectic differences among the regions of Italy. My cousins are Abruzzese and they also tend to cut off the last vowel, by the way, as well as pronounce their s’s as “sh”. But I do agree that, generally, northern Italian is gorgeous and much easier to understand for most folks.

Bob, my wife’s family lives in Camden and Burlington Counties- Haddon Heights, Vorhees, and Medford. And they’re Calabrese and Pugliese, not Siciliani.

[M_M_c_C_a_l_l]

@K V a s t o l a

Perhaps the most famous one is “pasta e fagioli” pronounced “pasta fazool”. The first time I saw “pasta e fagioli” on an Italian menu, I had no idea what it was!

Less famous, but no less impressive: sfogliatelle = shfoo-ya-dell.

[Frank_Deis]

This is interesting. There are parallel texts for the Lord’s Prayer.

But I can’t find a good translation for “va fungool!!”

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Sicilian language - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ken_V]

@K V a s t o l a

Those are more of a dialect issue. Most Italian-American, esp. around NYC, come (like my grandfather) from the Naples area. Dropping the vowel at the end and slurring the end is pretty much the way they say it in Campania. Of course, that’s not the “King’s Italian”.

Perhaps the most famous one is “pasta e fagioli” pronounced “pasta fazool”. The first time I saw “pasta e fagioli” on an Italian menu, I had no idea what it was!

@Frank Deis

Gabbagool and Manigott aren’t “wrong” – they are Sicilian, at least that’s my understanding. Unvoiced consonants are voiced in the Sicilian dialect and final vowels are dropped. Cappicola => Gabagool, Manicotti => Manigott. Florentine Italian is more beautiful and is the national standard, but you can’t necessarily say that dialect pronunciations are bad, wrong, etc. Most of the Italians who arrived in New York and New Jersey around 100 years ago were Sicilians, that was the only Italian they knew, learned at their mother’s knee.

[Frank_Deis]

I jumped to the end, I hadn’t read your post Ken.

Obviously?

I was counting on the system software to take me to the last post.

Of course neither of us had any effect on Chris…

[Chris_Presutti]

@Frank Deis

I jumped to the end, I hadn’t read your post Ken.

Obviously?

I was counting on the system software to take me to the last post.

Of course neither of us had any effect on Chris…

How predictable. A thread on pronunciation of food devolves into childish sniping. My audacity to see it differently obviously had an effect on you. If it will help, I’ll concede that Jersey Italian is a bastardization of Sicilian rather than a bastardization of regular Italian. Better now?

[Jorge_Henriquez]

@Chris Presutti

@Frank Deis

Of course neither of us had any effect on Chris…

How predictable. A thread on pronunciation of food devolves into childish sniping. My audacity to see it differently obviously had an effect on you. If it will help, I’ll concede that Jersey Italian is a bastardization of Sicilian rather than a bastardization of regular Italian. Better now?

Chris,

No need to get upset. Sounds like Frank was just teasing. He apparently forgot to use the appropriate emoticon at the end of his post.

[Ken_V]

@Chris Presutti

I speak Italian and it’s really annoying to be “corrected” as often as I am by servers in restaurants.

And don’t get me started on New Jersey’s gross bastardization of the language. My wife is from south Jersey and every time we visit I get infuriated when I hear such atrocities as “gabba gool” and “manigott”.
[suicide.gif]

Chris,

How and where did you learn Italian?

I grew up in North Jersey among the largest mass of Italians anywhere outside of Italy. I know that is not correct “high Italian”, but I have a great affection for it. And let’s face it, if Naples had ruled Italy, that would be high Italian.

Getting corrected by haughty but ignorant servers in restaurants is by no means restricted to pronunciation of other languages. I have had people insist on all kinds of wrong wine knowledge with great confidence including that Barolo is a grape and not a place!

BTW since you seem easily offended, I’m curious why you responded to Frank’s post and not my earlier post that said nearly the same thing?

[M_M_c_C_a_l_l]

@K V a s t o l a

@Chris Presutti

I grew up in North Jersey among the largest mass of Italians anywhere outside of Italy. I know that is not correct “high Italian”, but I have a great affection for it.

Same here-- but I grew up in Canarsie. I know those pronunciations are wrong (and as a non-Italian I never used them anyway) but there’s something very pleasing and homey about the way it sounds.

Getting corrected by haughty but ignorant servers in restaurants is by no means restricted to pronunciation of other languages. I have had people insist on all kinds of wrong wine knowledge with great confidence including that Barolo is a grape and not a place!

My favorite ever was at Wild Ginger in Seattle, where I ordered a Donnhoff Kabinett and the waiter looked at me like I’d told him I had weeping herpetic sores. Now, Wild Ginger has a nice list and a knowledgeable staff, so I couldn’t understand this reaction. He left for a few minutes to “check if that wine’s available”.

When he came back, he gave me a pitying look and said with emphasis “we don’t have that cah-ber-NAY!”

[David_Wright]

OK, so how do you pronounce this…

'Nfigghiulata Antica

[Ken_V]

@David Wright

OK, so how do you pronounce this…

'Nfigghiulata Antica

The 2nd word is ann-teak-a.

[Frank_Deis]

My only childish sniping was aimed at Ken.

I suppose I could understand being offended by someone’s Italian if I honestly believed that the people who said those things were doing a bad imitation of The Sopranos. But like Ken says, if you grow up hearing those pronunciations at home every day, then how are you supposed to learn any different?

I was a little surprised to hear that “tristate Italian” is as much Neapolitan as Sicilian. Ken, seriously did you look at the Wikipedia, can you say which version of “Our Father” sounded correct to you?

A book I love is “Bruculinu, America” by the late actor Vince Schiavelli, full of recipes and stories about the Italians in Brooklyn – his family and I think most of his neighbors were from Sicily, and I thought that was the general trend, but it’s something I may be wrong about.

[Chris_Presutti]

Thanks for setting me straight, Jorge and Ken. I wasn’t offended at all, only annoyed. And probably without good reason. Absent verbal inflection or qualifying emoticons, it’s often difficult to distinguish between good-natured teasing and someone being an asshat on the interwebs. I don’t have thin skin but I also don’t take shit from anyone. I’m also grounded enough that I can man-up and apologize. Sorry for getting my back up.

Ken, since you asked…I learned Italian from my parents and grandparents while growing up. That gave me a rather poor grasp of the language though as I learned from my first trip to meet my cousins in L’Aquila in '95 when I observed that they had difficulty understanding my grandfather and me and he was even born there. That convinced me to learn proper Italian and go from there. I took a few non-credit Italian classes at OSU and our class turned into a weekly casual get-together at our professoressa’s house for several years where we honed our conversational skills. My teacher is from Rome and she did a good job of explaining the nuances of the dialects. My Italian is pretty solid now but with a few areas of exception. I’ve returned to Italy nearly every year since ‘95 and I’ve successfully (partially) assimilated to my cousins’ dialect. Had to cancel our trip this year because of the terrible earthquake. Thankfully, all of my relatives are OK but some did lose their homes.

[Jorge_Henriquez]

@Chris Presutti

Thanks for setting me straight, Jorge and Ken.

Prego! Fugghedaboudit.

@Chris Presutti

I don’t have thin skin but I also don’t take shit from anyone.

Ahhhh, spoken like a true goomba.

[Bob_Wood]

“Spoken like a true goomba.”

Maybe this is what Chris looks like.

[Frank_Deis]

I have been trying to think of one “Soprano’s Italian” word and it finally came to me.

Escarole – the green leafy vegetable often used in soup – is “Shkarool” or “Shkarole”

And it’s slang for money, just as in the South you eat collards on New Year’s Day to attract dollar bills…

[David_Wright]

@K V a s t o l a

@David Wright

OK, so how do you pronounce this…

’Nfigghiulata Antica

The 2nd word is ann-teak-a.

Apparently our panel is stumped…

If it helps, this is the Italian name of a “Sicilian Bread Roll, in the Old Style” from Carlo Middione’s “Food of Southern Italy.”

[Bob_Wood]

How about we just call it pasta fazool?