Rivers Marie Pinot Chardonnay Release January 17th

Jeff_Fish · January 10, 2012, 8:38pm

YMMV, but from my experience, Corey, the 05s and 06s are drinking just fine. I’ve had a few '04 Summa and Summa O.V. in the past year and they were still holding their own. My last '03 Summa O.V. drank last year showed very well. IMO I believe that the vast majority of people like much younger wine than me - just look in CT at all of the praises for wine received right after delivery. Whenever I bite and open a bottle after reading some of those notes I am disappointed - the wines are disjointed showing either too much fruit, reduction, tannin, acidity, etc. and need time to calm and come together for me to enjoy them. So I would definitely take a peek. I’m digging them and don’t think they’ll fall off a cliff anytime soon. (Sorry for any thread drift).

Lance_Smith · January 10, 2012, 8:51pm

Are you guys looking for these to age?

Seems like if you can get past that ‘bump in the road’, you can enjoy both of the bottlings for what they are.

I enjoyed the 2008 RM Chard I consumed a few weeks ago. Conveniently, I open the 09 Rhys Santa Cruz the night before with some crab cakes and had a glassful leftover to compare/contrast with the RM the following day. As it was, much different profiles - yet, shockingly enough, they were both enjoyable. My wife preferred the RM actually.

Swords down gentlemen, we’re in the same army.

Russ_Williams · January 10, 2012, 8:52pm

Thomas Rivers Brown:

Glenn L e v i n e:

Premox California Chard?

Not exactly, more a winemaking error on my part. I touched on it briefly in the 2008 vintage mailer. The 5 barrel 2007 lot of Chardonnay was being sampled for ML completion as a single lot. What we didn’t know at the time was there was a single barrel not finished with ML that was giving us a false negative for the lot. Basically 4 barrels sat unsulfured while done with both primary and secondary fermentation while 1 barrel finished secondary. Those 4 barrels galloped along the aging curve while sitting unprotected. At bottling and for the next six months or so that wasn’t easy to see but when early cracks developed, it became obvious. Starting with 2008, we treated every barrel as an individual wine catching each as it completed ML and sulfuring it appropriately. All the Chardonnays have been bottled cold fresh off of unstirred lees so you do occasionally see some residual fermentation CO2 in them. I can assure you the 2010 is very solid having had it now 10 or so times over the last two months but of course if there’s ever any issue, reach out and we’ll correct it.

Thanks Thomas for the honest explanation.

drsugarman · January 10, 2012, 8:54pm

I don’t completely disagree with Lew (and TTT) here but I would qualify these observations as coming from someone who’s palate is more burg/old world oriented. That is to say if you are a lover of CA Pinot and not particularly Old World oriented you will like these wines and probably appreciate some cellaring … I do agree that these are not likely to be old bones with some exceptions like the 2004 Summa OV.

Mike_Heyse · January 10, 2012, 9:06pm

FWIW: Popped an '09 SC Pinot this weekend, and after 30 minutes in a pie plate decanter, it was outstanding.

ekovitch · January 10, 2012, 9:21pm

TRB - I am not sure if you have stated this anywhere, but what do you consider to be the drinking curves of your wines? I get scared when some people say that wines “made in this style” don’t age beyond one year past bottling. If so, I got a ton of drinking to do, FAST.

My personal tastes are to let wines age, I typically enjoy good CA pinots and Burgs at least 10 years old. And there are CA pinots that age this long and more.

David_McMillen · January 10, 2012, 9:26pm

I had an '07 Summa OV a few weeks ago that was a true rock star bottle of wine.

Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e · January 10, 2012, 9:35pm

Russ Williams:

Thomas Rivers Brown:

Glenn L e v i n e:

Premox California Chard?

Not exactly, more a winemaking error on my part. I touched on it briefly in the 2008 vintage mailer. The 5 barrel 2007 lot of Chardonnay was being sampled for ML completion as a single lot. What we didn’t know at the time was there was a single barrel not finished with ML that was giving us a false negative for the lot. Basically 4 barrels sat unsulfured while done with both primary and secondary fermentation while 1 barrel finished secondary. Those 4 barrels galloped along the aging curve while sitting unprotected. At bottling and for the next six months or so that wasn’t easy to see but when early cracks developed, it became obvious. Starting with 2008, we treated every barrel as an individual wine catching each as it completed ML and sulfuring it appropriately. All the Chardonnays have been bottled cold fresh off of unstirred lees so you do occasionally see some residual fermentation CO2 in them. I can assure you the 2010 is very solid having had it now 10 or so times over the last two months but of course if there’s ever any issue, reach out and we’ll correct it.

Thanks Thomas for the honest explanation.

I also thank you and will use this as an excuse to open a 07 Theriot this fine California afternoon. I was basing my DW upon my experience drinking Littorai Theriot and we all know what they say about experience!

Thomas_Rivers_Brown · January 10, 2012, 10:06pm

I’ll find out quite a lot this weekend when I open a 02-10 SOV vertical out of 750 for some folks in Marin. In terms of how I like to them, I’m beginning to whittle down my small stash of 04s and 05s right now. I had 04 SC and SV last night and 05 OR over the weekend. None of them showed any signs of cracks with the 04s actually needing a lot more time. Can’t say I’ve had any 07s-09s recently, I’m letting those sleep. The best and most surprising bottle I’ve had recently is a 02 Summa regular, probably the best example of that wine I’ve had to date. It’s developed quite a bit of bottle sweetness. Here’s how I’d classify the wines across all the vintages:
2002–Drink soon, better a little too early than too late, stand up a day in advance, a lot of sediment
2003–SV drink soon, SOV I can’t tell, at 12.4 alcohol it’s moving at a glacial pace, I like it but wish it had a bit more mid-palate punch (personal preference)
2004–all need more time esp. the SOV, the goodness of the SC makes me very happy to be working with Gioia Vineyard again (it was 2/3s of the 04 SC)
2005–OR might be the best wine we’ve ever made, drinking great but no rush, SV needs more time
2006–big-berried year, good acidity but low tannin, definite drinkers
2007–will take a while for the baby fat to burn off, very primary but lots of acid and fruit tannin
2008–all shut down right now except the SC
2009–I wouldn’t touch any of them

Paul_H_Galli · January 10, 2012, 10:09pm

Lewis Dawson:

Corey N.:

Paul H Galli:

I have to state that I have been mightily unimpressed with how their Pinots and Chards age…

TTT

Paul,

I have a good amount of the Pinots aging but none of the Chards (had a 2008 B. Theriot and LOVED it) – would be very curious to have you expound upon these sentiments.

TIA

I’ve had all the pinots from the '04 - '07 era, most of the earlier pinots, and none after 2007. The R-M style is utterly unique in my experience. And I think distinctiveness is a good thing, generally. There is a blast of glossy, ripe, forward fruit, and it is nicely complex in some of the wines. With this forward, fruit-driven nature, one would expect high alcohol, but most of the wines are moderate % ABV, not as high as I would expect. And there is a core of acidity, perhaps natural, perhaps added, but if added it is nicely done. So the acid gives some degree of focus on the mid-palate. However, there is no real grip, and the fruit-driven finish seems soft, pillowy, lacking in structure to carry the load of fruit. It is not a style I seek out, thus no wines purchased or tasted after the 2007 vintage. But it is clear from reading here that many people love this style.

IMO, asking wines made in this style to age beyond a year or so of bottling is asking the unreasonable. With a few years bottle age, the baby fat recedes and the palate and finish become blowsy and soupy, IMO. All of my TN’s from soon after release are more positive than my TN’s from a year or two or three later… with the single exception of the 2005 Occidental Ridge, a stylistic departure from the R-M norm, and a wine that I rated “Outstanding” (circa 90 points) early last year.

The 2007 chardonnay was quite good at release, but I found it much less interesting last June. Thank you Thomas for an explanation of the cause.

So I guess I agree with Paul about R-M and the risks of cellaring the wines. Just my $0.02.

I can’t add anything to your comments.
I really recommend drinking 1-3 yrs after release as they tend to get a tad flabby with age. (Especially Summa!)

TTT

Corey_N · January 10, 2012, 10:25pm

Thomas Rivers Brown:

ekovitch:

TRB - I am not sure if you have stated this anywhere, but what do you consider to be the drinking curves of your wines? I get scared when some people say that wines “made in this style” don’t age beyond one year past bottling. If so, I got a ton of drinking to do, FAST.

My personal tastes are to let wines age, I typically enjoy good CA pinots and Burgs at least 10 years old. And there are CA pinots that age this long and more.

I’ll find out quite a lot this weekend when I open a 02-10 SOV vertical out of 750 for some folks in Marin. In terms of how I like to them, I’m beginning to whittle down my small stash of 04s and 05s right now. I had 04 SC and SV last night and 05 OR over the weekend. None of them showed any signs of cracks with the 04s actually needing a lot more time. Can’t say I’ve had any 07s-09s recently, I’m letting those sleep. The best and most surprising bottle I’ve had recently is a 02 Summa regular, probably the best example of that wine I’ve had to date. It’s developed quite a bit of bottle sweetness. Here’s how I’d classify the wines across all the vintages:
2002–Drink soon, better a little too early than too late, stand up a day in advance, a lot of sediment
2003–SV drink soon, SOV I can’t tell, at 12.4 alcohol it’s moving at a glacial pace, I like it but wish it had a bit more mid-palate punch (personal preference)
2004–all need more time esp. the SOV, the goodness of the SC makes me very happy to be working with Gioia Vineyard again (it was 2/3s of the 04 SC)
2005–OR might be the best wine we’ve ever made, drinking great but no rush, SV needs more time
2006–big-berried year, good acidity but low tannin, definite drinkers
2007–will take a while for the baby fat to burn off, very primary but lots of acid and fruit tannin
2008–all shut down right now except the SC
2009–I wouldn’t touch any of them

This is very helpful, thank you.

Lewis_Dawson · January 10, 2012, 11:07pm

Thomas, thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts on the wines, vintage by vintage. You and I may have some rather different opinions on some of them, but we sure do agree on that '05 Occidental Ridge. Best of luck with your 2010 offering. I’m sure it will sell out quickly.

David_McMillen · January 10, 2012, 11:20pm

Thomas Rivers Brown:

ekovitch:

TRB - I am not sure if you have stated this anywhere, but what do you consider to be the drinking curves of your wines? I get scared when some people say that wines “made in this style” don’t age beyond one year past bottling. If so, I got a ton of drinking to do, FAST.

My personal tastes are to let wines age, I typically enjoy good CA pinots and Burgs at least 10 years old. And there are CA pinots that age this long and more.

I’ll find out quite a lot this weekend when I open a 02-10 SOV vertical out of 750 for some folks in Marin. In terms of how I like to them, I’m beginning to whittle down my small stash of 04s and 05s right now. I had 04 SC and SV last night and 05 OR over the weekend. None of them showed any signs of cracks with the 04s actually needing a lot more time. Can’t say I’ve had any 07s-09s recently, I’m letting those sleep. The best and most surprising bottle I’ve had recently is a 02 Summa regular, probably the best example of that wine I’ve had to date. It’s developed quite a bit of bottle sweetness. Here’s how I’d classify the wines across all the vintages:
2002–Drink soon, better a little too early than too late, stand up a day in advance, a lot of sediment
2003–SV drink soon, SOV I can’t tell, at 12.4 alcohol it’s moving at a glacial pace, I like it but wish it had a bit more mid-palate punch (personal preference)
2004–all need more time esp. the SOV, the goodness of the SC makes me very happy to be working with Gioia Vineyard again (it was 2/3s of the 04 SC)
2005–OR might be the best wine we’ve ever made, drinking great but no rush, SV needs more time
2006–big-berried year, good acidity but low tannin, definite drinkers
2007–will take a while for the baby fat to burn off, very primary but lots of acid and fruit tannin
2008–all shut down right now except the SC
2009–I wouldn’t touch any of them

Thank you. I hope you repost after your vertical!

Paul_McCourt · January 11, 2012, 12:23am

Funny, but I always let these age. Each his own, I guess.

K_R_Baker · January 11, 2012, 12:58am

After tasting through the '10s in June, I can say these will be an easy purchase. In retrospect, I regret not scrubbing some notes, but contemplating the wines and picking Will’s brain consumed all my time there.

Re: the '07 chard. It was the first vintage from RM and Thomas gave a very reasonable explanation - which I very much appreciate. I went through nearly a case of the '07 a while back (thank god for retail and auction channels) and every single bottle through last year delivered a highly pleasurable experience. I have no hesitation buying the '10.

Bob_Foster · January 11, 2012, 1:18am

If anyone isn’t going to take their full allocation, please let me know via PM. I’d love to get a few bottles. Thanks!

J_a_y_H_a_c_k · January 11, 2012, 2:08am

I had an '06 Summa PN earlier this year that seemed off. It was the only TRB wine I ever had that I did not like. Here’s my note. Has anyone noticed anything similar?

2006 Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir Summa Vineyard - USA, California, Sonoma County, Sonoma Coast (3/1/2011)
Very disappointing. The color was extremely cloudy and the flavor was a muddy mish-mosh. There were good flavors, cherry and some integrated cola with minerality, but there was too much imprecision. Was this a flawed bottle? Hard to say. It wasn’t corked, it wasn’t oxidized, I don’t think it was cooked, but it’s a marginal wine that had enough interesting components to justify an 83 score, but I desperately wanted to put it through some kind of filter to to sort out the good stuff from the bad stuff. I love TRB wines and I’ve had great bottles of his cabs, grenache and zinfandel. I haven’t had a RM pinot in a few years and I do not really remember what they were like when I popped a few on release. Does this note ring a bell with anyone or is it just a freak bottle? (83 pts.)

Posted from CellarTracker

I know that I got on the list when a 2004 Rivers Marie was the clear winner for almost everyone around the table in a blind 2004 offline someone organized about 5 years ago.

Andrew_Demaree · January 11, 2012, 2:25am

Thomas - thanks for the vintage run-down for the pinots. Any chance you can do the same for the cabs?

Best,
Andy

J_Singleton · January 11, 2012, 2:44am

Interesting notes. I opened an '08 Summa OV tonight since this thread got me wondering about longevity. I poured through a funnel into my Carlo Rossi 1.5L jug/decanter (classy, I know). I thought the wine was fantastic. Juicy, ripe, very aromatic. First two glasses were excellent. We’ll see how the other two are tomorrow. If this is “shut-down”, I can’t even begin to imagine how good it will be “open”.

Frank_Murray_III · January 11, 2012, 2:55am

Looking forward to the release, as well. I finished the last glass of the 08 Thieriot chard last night. Was excellent and still youthful. FWIW, the 08 chard last night did not show any spritz when I pulled the reset cork. Was fine so it must have been some dissolved CO2 and nothing I am concerned about.