Ripeness in Wines by Jamie Goode

[larry_schaffer]

The article makes the point of a sameness in late picked riper wines and I agree with this but I also have experienced a sameness is a number of earlier picked lower alcohol wines as well. Not all of them by any means just like not every 15% wine tastes the same. But when I notice this it comes across as an overwhelming cranberry that overrides any varietal character. Yet this isn’t noted in the article. For me proper ripeness is that sweet spot between cranberry and raisins where the real flavors come through.

Absolutely! True terroir comes from perfectly ripe grapes fermented without too much ‘winemaker’s thumbprints.’

I’m not sure that your statement is true - ‘terroir’ still needs to be better defined

So many other things come into play here. When you pick grapes certainly starts the potential wine off on a specific path, but it can also be ‘curtailed’ by the use of oak, by the use of ‘finishing agents’ like gum arabic, by the use of SO2 to control oxidation, etc.

But I agree with Brian - under-ripe is ‘no better’ than over-ripe - there can be a ‘sameness’ in either case.

Cheers.

[Scott_E1]

A couple of statements that I found interesting (Niepoort):

“In the Douro, our logic is more picking by ripeness of acidity than alcohol,” he says, “picking before the acidity falls dramatically".

Seems like this is just plain picking early?

“Old vines, and especially old vines looked after in an old-fashioned way, first produce ripeness and then the alcohol".

How does this work? Don’t they go hand-in-hand?

and this one from Papa (Chile):

“When you pick earlier, you get a bigger diversity of flavors.”

I imagine this is true, but some of those flavors are going to be green, no? Cheers!

[larry_schaffer]

A couple of statements that I found interesting (Niepoort):

“In the Douro, our logic is more picking by ripeness of acidity than alcohol,” he says, “picking before the acidity falls dramatically".

Seems like this is just plain picking early?

“Old vines, and especially old vines looked after in an old-fashioned way, first produce ripeness and then the alcohol".

How does this work? Don’t they go hand-in-hand?

and this one from Papa (Chile):

“When you pick earlier, you get a bigger diversity of flavors.”

I imagine this is true, but some of those flavors are going to be green, no? Cheers!

Great questions - and the statements all sound ‘good’ on first reading, but after really thinking about them . . .

I don’t thing there is such a thing as ‘ripeness of acidity’ - I think the concept here is to pick earlier to retain higher levels of natural acidity rather than ‘sacrificing’ that in lieu of a higher sugar content, and thus increased potential alcohol levels.

Not sure about the ‘diversity of flavors’ concept by picking earlier. And if we are just talking ‘diversity of flavors’ in the grapes themselves, we all can hopefully agree that that does not necessarily translate into ‘diversity of flavors’ in the final wine.

These statements remind me of so many other ‘conventional wisdoms’ that exist in the wine world which are just not true:

‘Unfiltered is always better than filtered’
‘True’ Rose is always better than Saignee roses
‘Smaller wineries make more interesting wines than larger wineries’
‘Old vines always lead to better or more complex wines than younger vines’

And the list can go on and on . . .

Cheers

[DougS]

The article makes the point of a sameness in late picked riper wines and I agree with this but I also have experienced a sameness is a number of earlier picked lower alcohol wines as well. Not all of them by any means just like not every 15% wine tastes the same. But when I notice this it comes across as an overwhelming cranberry that overrides any varietal character. Yet this isn’t noted in the article. For me proper ripeness is that sweet spot between cranberry and raisins where the real flavors come through.

Can you be more specific? Are there certain areas or categories, or even more helpful, producers, where you find this to be the case? It’s pretty far from my experience.

[James_Billy]

The article makes the point of a sameness in late picked riper wines and I agree with this but I also have experienced a sameness is a number of earlier picked lower alcohol wines as well. Not all of them by any means just like not every 15% wine tastes the same. But when I notice this it comes across as an overwhelming cranberry that overrides any varietal character. Yet this isn’t noted in the article. For me proper ripeness is that sweet spot between cranberry and raisins where the real flavors come through.

Absolutely! True terroir comes from perfectly ripe grapes fermented without too much ‘winemaker’s thumbprints.’

I’m not sure that your statement is true - ‘terroir’ still needs to be better defined

So many other things come into play here. When you pick grapes certainly starts the potential wine off on a specific path, but it can also be ‘curtailed’ by the use of oak, by the use of ‘finishing agents’ like gum arabic, by the use of SO2 to control oxidation, etc.

But I agree with Brian - under-ripe is ‘no better’ than over-ripe - there can be a ‘sameness’ in either case.

Cheers.

Larry, you are saying what I was trying to say!

[Brian_Gilp]

The article makes the point of a sameness in late picked riper wines and I agree with this but I also have experienced a sameness is a number of earlier picked lower alcohol wines as well. Not all of them by any means just like not every 15% wine tastes the same. But when I notice this it comes across as an overwhelming cranberry that overrides any varietal character. Yet this isn’t noted in the article. For me proper ripeness is that sweet spot between cranberry and raisins where the real flavors come through.

Can you be more specific? Are there certain areas or categories, or even more helpful, producers, where you find this to be the case? It’s pretty far from my experience.

I have a small home vineyard with multiple varieties. In 2010 due to family issues I had to pick all my reds on one day with different states of ripeness and co-fermented the entire pick together. The resulting wine wasn’t bad but did have a very distinct cranberry flavor that dominated.

The next time I tasted the same dominant cranberry flavor was when I ordered a mixed case from Broc. The 7 or 8 red wines in that case all had the same taste and honestly that’s all I tasted regardless of which variety it was. Note these were all 2011 vintage reds. I’ve not taste other vintages so can’t say it’s not a vintage issue.

I’ve noticed the same taste since then with some of the lower alcohol wines but surely not all of them. I don’t keep track so don’t have names. The only reason I remember the Broc is because every one of that case had the same taste and it was the first time I connected it to my own wine and the less than fully ripe pick.

[Wes_Barton]

A couple of statements that I found interesting (Niepoort):

“In the Douro, our logic is more picking by ripeness of acidity than alcohol,” he says, “picking before the acidity falls dramatically".

Seems like this is just plain picking early?

“Old vines, and especially old vines looked after in an old-fashioned way, first produce ripeness and then the alcohol".

How does this work? Don’t they go hand-in-hand?

and this one from Papa (Chile):

“When you pick earlier, you get a bigger diversity of flavors.”

I imagine this is true, but some of those flavors are going to be green, no? Cheers!

“Ripeness of acidity” is an odd conceptualization, but they’re just talking about a range. For their location, that’s a metric that works predictably to make a good picking decision. It doesn’t translate to all sites and varieties, but why should they care? It isn’t picking early, it’s where they view complexity is at its peak. These compounds develop over time, then begins dissipation of aromatic compounds, then the cell structures start breaking down to the point inputs cease. Think of that as three phases. The first is clearly ripening. The last is senescence (death/breakdown). In between there is a trade-off of gains and losses. And, of course, there are wine styles that are purposefully under-ripe and over-ripe to be their best. What’s revered in Vintage Port would be lost with too much hang time.

Re: The old vines statement. That’s their experience with their vines. I’d guess the biggest factor differentiating their young and old vines is the production and delivery of sugars to the grapes. Foliar disease can significantly slow photosynthesis. Clogged up old wood can majorly slow fluid flow.

Note green flavors are just from under-ripeness. Hang too much fruit and that sort may never be able to go away, despite all other ripening metrics being advanced. Pyrazines are largely a factor of foliar management, not ripeness. You can also get green flavors from heavy extraction, including with the assistance of high alcohol near the end of fermentation.

[DougS]

The article makes the point of a sameness in late picked riper wines and I agree with this but I also have experienced a sameness is a number of earlier picked lower alcohol wines as well. Not all of them by any means just like not every 15% wine tastes the same. But when I notice this it comes across as an overwhelming cranberry that overrides any varietal character. Yet this isn’t noted in the article. For me proper ripeness is that sweet spot between cranberry and raisins where the real flavors come through.

Can you be more specific? Are there certain areas or categories, or even more helpful, producers, where you find this to be the case? It’s pretty far from my experience.

I have a small home vineyard with multiple varieties. In 2010 due to family issues I had to pick all my reds on one day with different states of ripeness and co-fermented the entire pick together. The resulting wine wasn’t bad but did have a very distinct cranberry flavor that dominated.

The next time I tasted the same dominant cranberry flavor was when I ordered a mixed case from Broc. The 7 or 8 red wines in that case all had the same taste and honestly that’s all I tasted regardless of which variety it was. Note these were all 2011 vintage reds. I’ve not taste other vintages so can’t say it’s not a vintage issue.

I’ve noticed the same taste since then with some of the lower alcohol wines but surely not all of them. I don’t keep track so don’t have names. The only reason I remember the Broc is because every one of that case had the same taste and it was the first time I connected it to my own wine and the less than fully ripe pick.

Thanks. I think the Broc wines all taste the same because they’re terribly flawed microbial messes. It’s really difficult for me to get past that element and think about the fruit. I guess maybe there’s an extreme where what you’re talking about happens, but I’m not sure. I think of vintages in Europe where some grapes didn’t get fully ripe (by my definition), yet the wines still have definite sense of place and grape. I guess I remember having an Arnot-Roberts Syrah that was something like 11% ABV and didn’t taste like Syrah. It was so tart that I didn’t enjoy drinking it, and I love high acid wines like Nebbiolo from the Alto Piemonte. Maybe that was an example and I just haven’t seen or noticed it elsewhere.